question for Scuba

[A_PLUS]

This question regards L3-4 play. Lets say you are yet to play a hand, the table is still 8 players. You are dealt AKo, etc in EP. Do you open push? 1/2 your stack? Over the weekend, I was opening with a push, in situations like this. It worked well, I ended up getting called by AX about 1/2 the time (that I was called). Also, how do you generally play ITM with high blinds? Are you ever opening a pot that isnt a push?

I must admit. The thought of reducing poker to this type of play, hurts me deeply, but hey...EV is EV!

[skipperbob]

How in the pluperfectfuck would Scuba know; try asking your dog, or even, God-forbid, Yugo /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[A_PLUS]

hahaha, so what about you skip. Whats your view of mid-evel play in 20+2 SNGs.

[The Yugoslavian]

Scuba needs more information. Buyin, stack sizes, perhaps even a concrete example /images/graemlins/shocked.gif!

However, I very rarely push in the types of situations you describe. Poker is a wonderously contextual thing and there can be no 'hard and fast' rules about pushing AK.

Unless you're @ the $11 level....then I guess you can always push it and be fine (but I still don't).

Yugoslav
PS Interestingly, there are *other* ways to take money off of weak aces.....and you don't risk running into coinflips.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
How in the pluperfectfuck would Scuba know; try asking your dog, or even, God-forbid, Yugo /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to know I'm shortly after A-Plus' dog on his list of animals to ask about poker.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Yugoslav
PS It's like you *knew* I'd respond to the OP...didn't you? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
This question regards L3-4 play. Lets say you are yet to play a hand, the table is still 8 players. You are dealt AKo, etc in EP. Do you open push? 1/2 your stack? Over the weekend, I was opening with a push, in situations like this. It worked well, I ended up getting called by AX about 1/2 the time (that I was called). Also, how do you generally play ITM with high blinds? Are you ever opening a pot that isnt a push?

I must admit. The thought of reducing poker to this type of play, hurts me deeply, but hey...EV is EV!

[/ QUOTE ]

First things first, see my post What is a hand? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=186 1331&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=)

I assume you mean on PartyPoker?

This is a very difficult to answer with SO LITTLE INFORMATION. I think a lot of things change based on your stack size. For example, I think I can absolutely say, without a doubt, that I would push or call a push, if I had 300 or fewer chips. Beyond that, I need more info.

[A_PLUS]

Ok, here is an example from a 22+2 SNG.

You have 725 TC. L4 (50/100) 7 players remaining.
You are UG+2. (AKo).

One limper (950) to you....
Two largest stacks are yet to act with (1650, 1300).

I was 4-tabling at the time, so I didnt have much of a read on anyone. My thought were, I dont want to play this hand without position, and any reasonable raise is for most of my chips. So I pushed.

[A_PLUS]

Sorry for being one of 'those' posters.

I was reading some of Scubas posts on leaks players party SNG games, and follow up discussion on the art of folding equity. I was not really looking for advice on a particular hand, more of his general strategy (realizing that it is dynamic)

Here is what I should have written:

Scuba,

When multi-tabling and following your uber-tight advice early in SNGs 10+1, 20+2)How do you generally attack a situation where you do not get a playable hand until L4, and you still have a relatively full table. For insance, the hand I posted. Is there a point (if so, what goes into your decision) where you would push vs. open with a standard 3X BB raise?

Also, to point out. I am not looking for general SNG advice. I am looking for advice on party SNGs, where you are playing 4 tables, thus limiting your feel for your table.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here is an example from a 22+2 SNG.

You have 725 TC. L4 (50/100) 7 players remaining.
You are UG+2. (AKo).

One limper (950) to you....
Two largest stacks are yet to act with (1650, 1300).

I was 4-tabling at the time, so I didnt have much of a read on anyone. My thought were, I dont want to play this hand without position, and any reasonable raise is for most of my chips. So I pushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your thoughts also could have included:

Hey, I have AK! That's a pretty OK hand!
If everyone just folds, I increase my stack by 50%!
These douches will call me with Ax!
And a few more, but I'm trying to be nice, and you seem to maybe understand that you want to see all 5 cards with your hand, if they're going to play with you, and you are going to be pot committed with any raise.

citanul

[citanul]

Advice:

Don't play 4 tables on party if you really honestly feel that your feel for each table is reduced to something close to 0. It's retarded.

I hope that will be as mean as I get today, even though I wasn't even listed below "dog" on who you should ask for advice.

citanul, a productive member of society.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here is an example from a 22+2 SNG.

You have 725 TC. L4 (50/100) 7 players remaining.
You are UG+2. (AKo).

One limper (950) to you....
Two largest stacks are yet to act with (1650, 1300).

I was 4-tabling at the time, so I didnt have much of a read on anyone. My thought were, I dont want to play this hand without position, and any reasonable raise is for most of my chips. So I pushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, I think this play is correct. I HATE limpers. It means one of three things (in order as to what I think is the most likely scenario as to what will happen).
1) A weak player, who will fold to an allin
2) A lying trap (AA)
3) A weak player dumb enough to call an allin because he thinks his A2 is good enough.

Scuba (who thinks this is a results oriented question).

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
When multi-tabling and following your uber-tight advice early in SNGs 10+1, 20+2)How do you generally attack a situation where you do not get a playable hand until L4, and you still have a relatively full table. For insance, the hand I posted. Is there a point (if so, what goes into your decision) where you would push vs. open with a standard 3X BB raise?

Also, to point out. I am not looking for general SNG advice. I am looking for advice on party SNGs, where you are playing 4 tables, thus limiting your feel for your table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots to comment on here.

I don't think I deserve any credit for the uber-tight early play strategy. That belongs to someone else or the forum as a whole. But, I am an advocate for this.

[ QUOTE ]
I was reading some of Scubas posts on leaks players party SNG games

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you put this in English for me? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ QUOTE ]
and follow up discussion on the art of folding equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

The art of folding equity. IMO, all students of this concept will be winning players through time. Admittedly, I am a student, and always will be a student of this concept.

[ QUOTE ]
I am looking for advice on party SNGs, where you are playing 4 tables, thus limiting your feel for your table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may not have any insight into "who" the other players are, and I may not have any specific "reads" on other players, but I always have a very good "feel" for what is going on. I am constantly thinking for reasons why I should fold a particularly hand. There are instances where I will fold ATo, but push 27o on the very next hand.

Thus, your final question to me leads me to realize that you still have a lot of studying to do. Which is fine, we've all been there, and the answers don't come freely or cheaply.

[A_PLUS]

I think I would be lowering my EV by playing fewer tables to improve my table reads. (THIS IS FOR PARTY SNGs ONLY).
Most of the situations I find, you would need more than the 30 hands to really have enough info to really make a profitable read on someone. Especially with the caliber of player that play on weekends. Could I improve my ROI by playing fewer tables? absolutely. Could I improve my $/hr? I dont think so.

Here is an example from this weekend. 21/51 ITM (41%).
I understand sample size, and KNOW all abotu variance, etc. This is just an example. This was playing every spare minute I had this weekend. FOr me to really get a feel for a table, I would have to only play 2 tables, making it 25 games. I cant imagine it benefitting me enough to do so.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Advice:

Don't play 4 tables on party if you really honestly feel that your feel for each table is reduced to something close to 0. It's retarded.

I hope that will be as mean as I get today, even though I wasn't even listed below "dog" on who you should ask for advice.

citanul, a productive member of society.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, in all deference, Citanul is an example of a better poster to ask advice from.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, in all deference, Citanul is an example of a better poster to ask advice from.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, you give yourself too little credit and me too much. It's possible I may be a better SNG player than you, or know more about them than you. It's possible that exactly the opposite is the case as well. Regsardless, I would have to say that you are a better poster to ask advice from, since you are more likely to respond kindly, promptly, and with good advice.

citanul

[A_PLUS]

English: I was reading some of Scuba posts on different leaks in the average players party SNG game.

What would you recomend for improving my grasp of folding equity. What I have been trying to do, is analyze any questionable hand I come accross using pokerstove for my equity, and the probability of running into the range of hands I use.

I will be the 1st to admit that I am green when it comes to party SNGs. I spent my 1st 2 years playing SNGs at UB, often at 6 person tables. Since, I have mostly played ring games on paradise. But I recognize a good +EV game when I see one. I appreciate all of your help.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would be lowering my EV by playing fewer tables to improve my table reads. (THIS IS FOR PARTY SNGs ONLY).
Most of the situations I find, you would need more than the 30 hands to really have enough info to really make a profitable read on someone. Especially with the caliber of player that play on weekends. Could I improve my ROI by playing fewer tables? absolutely. Could I improve my $/hr? I dont think so.

Here is an example from this weekend. 21/51 ITM (41%).
I understand sample size, and KNOW all abotu variance, etc. This is just an example. This was playing every spare minute I had this weekend. FOr me to really get a feel for a table, I would have to only play 2 tables, making it 25 games. I cant imagine it benefitting me enough to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your ITM from a short run of SNGS over the weekend is of absolutely no interest to me. It should similarly be of very little interest to you. Your ROI from the weekend, and $/hr should be of some moderate interest to you, but again, very little interest to me.

That said, listen up a sec, ok?

Your post makes it clear that your interest lies in making the most $/hr. Clearly, this is something that you probably want to have improve over time, and stagnate infrequently. This is done by learning to play better poker. Are there amounts of money you can make from the party SNGs by playing purely mechanically, and playing with 0 reads/feel for the table? Yes. Are those amounts of money laughable? No. Will this style of play allow you to move up to the highest games and beat them? Most likely not. (Honestly, I think that you can beat the 200s, with good game selection, playing incredibly "straightforward" poker. But don't tell anyone. Sh.)

Table "feel" and "reads" are very important. Even though your sample size is small. See Gigabet's recent post. Most importantly, it is hard to develop these skills jumping in at the 4 table level. Some will find it difficult to develop them starting at the 2 table level or even the 1 table level. Sorry, continue the "most importantly" from last sentence in to this one - once you become well practiced in these skills, they become PART of your mechanical play repertoire, so that they come to you just as easilly as should "push AKo for 7 BB behind one limper with 7 remaining at 50/100." These are the ways in which SNG players get better.

Getting better -> ability to play higher stakes, and ability to play more tables, over time -> ability to have a higher ROI, and higher $/hr.

It's like... say you play chess, there's a level that you can get to simply by just not hanging pieces all the time, just because if you're playing weak opposition, they are hanging pieces all the time. But at some point, you have to learn to think more than one move ahead. Then at some later point, you have to learn to think even more steps ahead, and etc.

citanul

[A_PLUS]

Thanks,
I do appreciate the advice.

Normally, I do not pay attention to short term results, and would rather further my game at the expense of $/hr, but I am off to vegas on Thursday and was looking to maximze my bank before I left. But I must admit I am interested in improving my SNG game, and moving up, you know after Vegas.

Thanks

[citanul]

Folding equity...

Well, it's basically all about the gap. It's all about finding spots where either it's unlikely someone has a hand, just probabilistically, or spots where, even if the guy had a hand, it would be very difficult for him to call.

The hand at the beginning of this post was very little about fold equity, it was about having the best hand the vast majority of the time, so being ok with getting all your money in, and wanting to see 5 cards if you saw any.

Folding equity is also very much player dependent. Some players are tight, some are loose. Clearly one of those groups is more likely to fold, thus, more folding equity. Some players play dumb, even on the bubble, and don't obey the gap. The folding equity gets lower against them. Stuff like that. There have been some really truly terrific posts about Folding Equity done in the past. A lot of the stuff that contributes to folding equity is exactly why you should make sure that you are capable of playing all the tables you play while paying attention to them. In the late game, knowing who's a caller and who's a folder is the tits.

So yeah, it's kinda about knowing the % likelihood of running into a range of hands, but it's also about being able to adjust that range of hands based on all sorts of table factors. And it's very much about knowing the tempo of how things have been going. Who's the bully, who's fed up with the bully (especially if the bully is you). It's good to have a kind of internal feel for the likelihoods of things, but not have to check them all the time, because really, you want to sort of have this stuff internalized when you decide that it's the right time to push with 54o from the sb 4 handed.

That was a little ranty, sorry.

citanul

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
What would you recomend for improving my grasp of folding equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Knowing what I know now. Pay someone.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
but I am off to vegas on Thursday and was looking to maximze my bank before I left

[/ QUOTE ]

What games do you intend to play in Vegas? Are there any games that are similar to SNGs? Or, are there any games where SNG skills will apply?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here is an example from a 22+2 SNG.

You have 725 TC. L4 (50/100) 7 players remaining.
You are UG+2. (AKo).

One limper (950) to you....
Two largest stacks are yet to act with (1650, 1300).

I was 4-tabling at the time, so I didnt have much of a read on anyone. My thought were, I dont want to play this hand without position, and any reasonable raise is for most of my chips. So I pushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I push here.

FWIW, if the blinds are 25/50 I don't.

Yugoslav
PS I think one can contruct an argument for folding or even limping (/images/graemlins/shocked.gif) here depending on stack sizes and when the 100/200 blinds are going to come.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
PS I think one can contruct an argument for folding or even limping () here depending on stack sizes and when the 100/200 blinds are going to come.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's dangerous to make this statement. I can only think of one precise scenario where you cold logically construct an argument for this line of thinking. Otherwise, this is a for sure leak.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What would you recomend for improving my grasp of folding equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Knowing what I know now. Pay someone.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what do you know now, oh Socrates of the SNG forum??

Yugoslav
(PM if necessary)

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Who's the bully, who's fed up with the bully (especially if the bully is you).

[/ QUOTE ]

Important skill to learn.

[A_PLUS]

I havent decided if I will be playing any satelites, if thats what you mean. I would say my time will be spent 80% NL ring games, and an occasional lower buy-in MTTs.

Of course there are always skills that carry over, but my Ring play and party SNG play are about as different as possible. That is one of the reasons I have had a hard time adjusting.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
And what do you know now, oh Socrates of the SNG forum??

[/ QUOTE ]

Socrates was a master of his art. And from my understanding, during his time, he was respected as a master of his art.

I am no master, but a student. I know that I have a lot to learn about poker, and Folding Equity still (and besides, I still make too many mental mistakes). But I do think that I have a leg up. I was lucky, it didn't cost me that much in dollar terms. I paid for it with HOHE and a friendship (which is invaluable IMO). Knowing what I know now, I'm saying it's worth it. The friend I learned it from paid $1,000 for it. (I think I remember an old thread where Gigabet said he paid $20,000 for what he knows now.)

I think Irieguy is probably doing a fine job teaching newbies. And worth the price and then some to learn from him. In fact, he probably doesn't charge enough. Frankly, I'd prefer he didn't instruct, it means better opposition, and less ROI for me.

I don't know if this interests anyone, but right now I'm making a list of posters on 2+2 that I intend to ask to mentor me. And assuming I learn things as valuable as I have in the past, it's worth paying for.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PS I think one can contruct an argument for folding or even limping () here depending on stack sizes and when the 100/200 blinds are going to come.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's dangerous to make this statement. I can only think of one precise scenario where you cold logically construct an argument for this line of thinking. Otherwise, this is a for sure leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. We're likely thinking of a very similar scenario.

But I doubt I've ever actually followed the above line from my post in practice. At least, I don't remember doing it ever, /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

The general and vague point is that poker is contextual....

But everyone already knows that.

Yugoslav

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And what do you know now, oh Socrates of the SNG forum??

[/ QUOTE ]

Socrates was a master of his art. And from my understanding, during his time, he was respected as a master of his art.

I am no master, but a student.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm referencing your use of the Socratic method for assisting and/or 'answering' posts in this forum. No one on here comes close to you in this regard, ergo, you are the 'Socrates of the SNG forum.' This has nothing to do with whether or not you're 'good' or 'bad' at poker, btw, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Also, Socrates was not the master of any sort of 'art' and was also likely *not* considered a master of 'it' by a very large number of people during his time. It happens that he *was* considered to be extremely wise and inspirational to many 'students' who subsequently promoted a very important brand of philosophical thought and attributed it to a large degree, to him.

Yugoslav
Who wishes he had better poker playing friends, /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

[skipperbob]

"Socrates, What is Truth?"..."Socrates, What is the meaning of Life?"....All these B.S. questions; nobody ever says "Socrates, Hemolock is poison" /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[skipperbob]

I not "freely" or "cheeply"; then possibly with modest cost?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm referencing your use of the Socratic method for assisting and/or 'answering' posts in this forum. No one on here comes close to you in this regard, ergo, you are the 'Socrates of the SNG forum.'

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I owe you some credit. First is that you notice that I do try and ask questions more than give answers. It helps very much in my field of work, and I appreciate the compliment.

Second, you obviously know more about Socrates than I, so I should be quiet.

Scuba - who know almost nothing about Socrates.

[A_PLUS]

whatever you are doing, keep it up. I started posting here off an one a few weeks back. I honestly was completely missing what you were trying to get across to us SNG neophytes. For some reason, I never get what you are trying to get across until an hour or so after I read your post.

Here is an excercise I have been planning with a friend. Let me know if you think this is along the right path. We would take turns. First, he would play a SNG on my account. I would sweat the game, with AIM open. I would direct him how to play each hand, without ever seeing my cards. The reason behind having him play for me rather than just covering the cards, is to not lose the value of my premium hands, AA-QQ, AQs. So he would inform me of those hands only, and I would be forced to recognize situations with high F.E.

I have a VERY hard time with this aspect online. It is something I really work on during live play (easier b/c of physical reads, as well as repeated oponents).

Here is a question, that may be less idiotic.

With the shallow chips of the party game, do you often try to take advantage of post flop F.E. There is a type of player that just can not bring themselves to lay down pre-flop after limping in, but will fold on the flop without TP. In deep money MTTs I use this player for everything they are worth, often raising to isolate them with any two cards, but I have been hesitant to use it with party SNGs, b/c the 1/3 chance that they hit there flop (also add the % that they are trapping with a high PP) may not be worth the high % of my chips.

anyway, thanks for replies, this is a great forum.