lay down decisions? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

marching_on_together

03-07-2005, 03:12 PM

Ok can anybody fold these at any point (does anybody play these differently)

Hand 1

opponent is 31/10/1.27/ 39 hands

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB bets, MP2 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Hand 2

opponent is 57/9/0.76 173 hands he is also short stacked the river bet puts him all in

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP1 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP1 calls $3.50 (All-In), Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

Hand 3 same opponent as last time 57/9/0.76 173 hands

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises, 4 folds, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

hand 4

And one where i do fold

opponents only played 12 hands with them but MP1 has played 50% SB 8%

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, MP1 calls, 4 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls, SB 3-bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

your views appreciated

swarbre

03-07-2005, 04:06 PM

2 and 4 look good 1 and 3 more debatable

pyroponic

03-07-2005, 04:35 PM

Hands 1 and 3 are difficult laydowns. On hand 2 i'd raise the flop, and fold to a 3-bet or if he calls the raise then bets into you on the turn. Hand 4 probably is a fold on the flop, I don't i'd raise the flop here.

crunchy1

03-07-2005, 05:18 PM

Hand #1 - Standard. (note: with only 39 hands I still consider this opponent fairly unknown)

Hand #2 - Personally I'd raise the flop and try to get him all-in ASAP. My thinking is that a short-stacked LAG will usually gamble in these spots with worse hands. I do like your line here too, because of your position, where you allow him to bluff the rest of his short stack off to you with draws or underpairs. The only hands beating you here are AA and a hand containing a K. I look for a short-stacked LAG to raise with either of these hands on a short stack here trying to gamble-it-up with what he thinks is a good hand. I'm surprised if you lost here.

Hand #3 - Again - I think it's pretty standard against this type of opponent who will regularly bet/raise with second-best holdings. You have TPTK (assuming he wouldn't cold-call 2 with AK - and I can't think of many LAG's that would). I don't think that a turn 3-bet would be out of line for you here either. 3-betting the turn however may make future play difficult if the turn gets capped or your river lead is raised again.

Hand #4 - The key in this hand is the presence of MP1 which makes calling the river bet a typically unprofitable play. I think the way you played it was ok and the river fold is pretty standard with MP1 calling down the whole way and the flush coming in on the end. Reads don't really matter again here - due to the small sample of hands you have on each player.
I think this is the most interesting hand - and it's especially a tough situation w/o reads on the other players. Even if you had a read on one or the other at least you could decide to isolate or dump on the flop. It's hard not to think you've got the best hand here with middle pair (plus your two backdoor draws). I might think about keeping the pot small and waiting to bet/raise the turn hoping to take it down there - but that's a tough call as well.

Overall looks good - some interesting hands.

crunchy1

03-07-2005, 05:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On hand 2 i'd raise the flop, and fold to a 3-bet or if he calls the raise then bets into you on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you really giving a short-stacked LAG credit for holding a K or AA here?

I would think that type of player would be raising PF every time with those holdings. I suppose if he's a "thinking" LAG he may limp trying to get more limpers behing him with his big-hand/short-stack - but we don't have a read to that effect. I'm defintely playing my QQ for the best hand and trying to get all his money in the pot - whether it be all-in on the turn with betting/raising or by letting him bet it out and calling down the whole way.

marching_on_together

03-07-2005, 05:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hands 1 and 3 are difficult laydowns. On hand 2 i'd raise the flop, and fold to a 3-bet or if he calls the raise then bets into you on the turn. Hand 4 probably is a fold on the flop, I don't i'd raise the flop here.

[/ QUOTE ]

For me hand two was the easiest as he was short stacked i figured he might bet the flop with anything. Plus i wasn't putting him on a premium hand as he had shown some garbage down on previous hands. I figured he might have one overcard to my Qs or a smaller pocket pair and thought i would let him draw as he doesn't have the odds to chase. I'm not sure a flop raise accumplishes much here as if he has a king it's likely with an average kicker so he will check to me on the turn, i'll bet and his call will put him nearly all in anyway. Even if he 3-bets the flop with the poker-tracker read and his short stack i don't think i could drop this as a shortstacked Pocket Pair might play it the same. I don't think he has enough money left to convince me i'm beat here.

On hand 4 although i didn't have many hands on MP1 he seemed to be too loose which often goes with poor post flop play i figured he might be betting out on a 3 handed flop which looks favourable for a bluff. When he 3-bet i new i was behind and would have folded if he had bet the turn.

Anybody else not like the flop raise on 4, i'm not too keen on calling all the way on 1 and 3 either although 1 does have a lot of draws he could be betting. I think i should have folded hand 3 at some point.

Any other views

{edit} it was the SB who bet out not MP1 but i still think this is a raise here against a unknown

marching_on_together

03-07-2005, 05:53 PM

Cheers thanks for the detailed answer, i think 3 is the easiest to get away from as an aggression factor of 0.76 when accounting for the fact he plays so many hands probably means he has average aggression post flop so i think he is often ahead on the turn. I called the turn raise as i have a few outs plus i could still be ahead here. When his turn raise doesn't push me off the hand i figure a bluff or semi-bluff might check through the river, when he bet i think i should have probably folded.

As you might guess i lost all four hands
results
H1 lost to QJ off suit
H2 lost to K10 off suit
H3 lost to K7 off suit
H4 lost to SB KK MP1 K5 off suit

MoDOH

03-07-2005, 06:10 PM

hand 1 I´ll hate it but I call down here to...

Hand 2 is ok. When the fish gets shortstacked they pull all sort of crazy stuff...

hand 3 is ok

I fold hand 4 on the flop though...

crunchy1

03-07-2005, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I fold hand 4 on the flop though...

[/ QUOTE ]

The more I think about it I agree. The pot size is dictating the play of this hand. With the pot being so small I think it's probably not worth fighting over.