Very unusual hand... K8 as TP on broadway board. How to handle it? [Archive]

View Full Version : Very unusual hand... K8 as TP on broadway board. How to handle it?

Akimka

03-07-2005, 09:44 AM

Commetns really appreciated.

MP1 is loose-passive (vpip 51, PFR 0) - nothing to say about
CO is more interesting. VPIP 32, PFR 8.82, postflop agr 1.4/1.5/2. But WSD 22, won $ sd 33.
I don't know how to categorize this type of player.

So hand.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $3. CO posts a blind of $3.
2 folds, MP1 (poster) checks, Hero calls, CO (poster) raises, Button calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

 As he post a blind i can't put him on strong holding. Of course fold here is not a option. 

Flop: (10.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
MP1 bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Button folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

 Raise here to protect my hand on big pot. Right? call 3bet from CO and starting to frighten KQ, KJ or smth.

Turn: (9.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

 Check-raise here - correct? But it failed... 

River: (9.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

 Well. Now things became more obvious. We suspect CO on flush draw almost 80% of time. But we making crying call. Correct? 

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

Guruman

03-07-2005, 10:57 AM

I'd call that a questionable call of the blinds pre-flop from middle position. From there, I'd only be in with a suited 10 or better to go with my K. Calling the raise is appropriate once you're in though.

I'm OK with your flop play since you need to push out anyone with an Ace (four out straight draw and an overcard)as well as those flush draws. I'd doubt that KJ or KQ would be out at this point though.

Turn is questionable since you don't want to lose an opportunity to push out passive MP1, and there is only one person behind you to act. A bet here may have won you the pot if they were both on draws. That said, I understand your logic since CO has been aggressive throughout the hand.

I'd call the river bet without question since its only one bet to you and you are the last to act.

How'd you do?

kurosh

03-07-2005, 11:01 AM

fgsdfvx

jt1

03-07-2005, 11:05 AM

very loose call preflop. consider posters as half a limper since you won't get the same action from them later on.

ckessel

03-07-2005, 11:47 AM

I'd have to agree with the others, K8s from mid position is a bit loose unless the table is very loose and very passive. From that point on, I think the CO just outplayed you due to superior position (assuming he had the flush).

If he had a good draw, maybe flush and/or open ended straight (w/ pocket tens) then he took the initiative to spend an extra small bet in an effort to nab a free card on the turn.

In fact, given he raised preflop and then checked, pocket Tens seems very possible. I can't think what else he'd raise preflop and bet the flop aggressively with, then do nothing on the turn. AK he'd bet out. AQ maybe he'd be passive on the turn (hoping for a cheap showdown and/or a T to give him a straight). I don't see AJ betting that hard, and not much else makes sense for the preflop raise.

jt1

03-07-2005, 12:31 PM

I'd call this river, but I call everything. From getting back on this board the last few days, I see that as a big leak.

I'd bet the turn and fold to a raise. QJ is the only hand that would raise here that you beat, so it's not worth the extra 2 bets. wait....no I'd call down and play it like you did, definitely calling the river. this is an unknown, right?

Carmine

03-07-2005, 01:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call this river, but I call everything. From getting back on this board the last few days, I see that as a big leak.

I'd bet the turn and fold to a raise. QJ is the only hand that would raise here that you beat, so it's not worth the extra 2 bets. wait....no I'd call down and play it like you did, definitely calling the river. this is an unknown, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I need to check for leaks. You guys are considering if you should call this river and I'm considering if I want to raise. Also if hero bets the turn, which I think I would, and he gets raised what makes you think QJ is the only hand that would raise him that he beats. How about AA, AK,AQ. I don't know how concerned I am about the flush draw either. It is more likey he raised PF with a big A, of course it doesn't mean they weren't suited. Also would a flush draw 3-bet the flop and risk losing customers facing two cold. I think I'm raising this river more times than not. Actually it's not usually a decision because I am bet/calling the turn and check/ calling the river.

JinX11

03-07-2005, 01:09 PM

Anyone bet the river??

masonx

03-07-2005, 01:13 PM

I think every move is correct except for the marginal preflop call which is excusable.

meep_42

03-07-2005, 01:14 PM

Fold PF, bet the turn and work from there.

-d

meep_42

03-07-2005, 01:16 PM

I don't think hands you beat are calling a river raise, but a better two-pair or flush are calling/3-betting, so I don't think a river check/raise has any value at all.

-d

meep_42

03-07-2005, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone bet the river??

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends what CO does to my turn bet. (Without making 2-pair, I likely check/fold the turn)

-d

jt1

03-07-2005, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also if hero bets the turn, which I think I would, and he gets raised what makes you think QJ is the only hand that would raise him that he beats. How about AA, AK,AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I didn't consider those hands for some reason, although, AQ isn't 3 betting the flop. I'd bet this turn too, and call down any raise.

ErrantNight

03-07-2005, 01:30 PM

whiffed on the turn check raise sucks but it's fine.

the poster raised... i think you can move forward on this hand assuming he has a reasonable holding.

and it sounds to me like you don't have a lot of hands with CO... so i'd not be so hyper-attuned to his WSD and W$SD stats.

Akimka

03-07-2005, 04:22 PM

Wow. Great discussion! I will read all comments little later. For now results to anyone who concern.

Hero has Kh 8h (two pair, kings and eights).
CO has Ah Ac (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.75

And MHIG /images/graemlins/smile.gif