AJs River

[Ralf]

First hand post, hello.

SB looks like a TAG with a little over 100 hands. Rest of the table could be called, dare I say, fishy?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (7 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero...

Additionally, how about that flop call?

[Shillx]

Welcome to the boards. Bet the river for value.

Brad

[zeropotential]

Flop call:
uncordinated board, pot lays at 8sb when it gets to you
(with the potential of a rr behind) you need 5-6 outs to call.
I'd say you have it, looks good

Turn:
mp3 cold called 2 on the turn: either a fool or has something
river puts down the flush and is connected... i'd still bet here

[adsman]

Flop call is fine as you have overcards plus backdoor str8 and flush draws. You were right to bet the river. Welcome to the boards.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Additionally, how about that flop call?

[/ QUOTE ]
Marginal, but fine.

Only bet the river if you can safely fold to a raise. I would probably bet/fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Rest of the table could be called, dare I say, fishy?


[/ QUOTE ]
Fishy as in playing strange or LPP. I think there's a differance between being a fish and being fishy. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river for value.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fold to a raise, I guess?

[zeropotential]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river for value.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fold to a raise, I guess?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would

[Ralf]

Haha, by fishy, I meant LPP, not just playing or smelling odd. I like that you addressed what might happen after I value bet, because I did do it and I did get raised by the SB.

I didn't fold, and that was actually the second thing I wanted to ask about after confirming the value bet. I'm sure you can guess the result since calling the raise and winning probably wouldn't make me question my play.

[adsman]

How do you figure that flop call is marginal? Hell, I might even raise here to knock the player behind me out and thus maybe get a freecard.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river for value.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fold to a raise, I guess?

[/ QUOTE ]

Questions like this really have no meaning. Not to be mean but not all raises are created equal.

Does the action go bet-fold-check/raise?
How about bet-raise-fold?
Maybe bet-call-check/raise?
Bet-raise-coldcall?

Brad

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
I would

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I don't think we should bet if we can't fold to a raise.

[Ralf]

I don't think I would have gotten a free card here, SB is aggressive and probably aware of the free card play.

<font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

Looks like I learned something from you guys. I declare this an awesome post.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Questions like this really have no meaning. Not to be mean but not all raises are created equal.

Does the action go bet-fold-check/raise?
How about bet-raise-fold?
Maybe bet-call-check/raise?
Bet-raise-coldcall?


[/ QUOTE ]
Of course, I realized I should also have put up scenarios after i posted the question. Fold to a check/raise from SB would be easy. Folding to a raise against a fishy playing opponent if closing the action and SB folds would be trickier in this huge pot.

EDIT:
I would probably call if: bet, raise, fold.
But fold any other combo.

EDIT 2:
Given MP3 being LLP I'm folding every raise.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
Haha, by fishy, I meant LPP, not just playing or smelling odd. I like that you addressed what might happen after I value bet, because I did do it and I did get raised by the SB.

I didn't fold, and that was actually the second thing I wanted to ask about after confirming the value bet. I'm sure you can guess the result since calling the raise and winning probably wouldn't make me question my play.

[/ QUOTE ]

So does the action go...

1) Hero bets-call-SB check/raises?
2) Hero bets-fold-SB check/raises?

They are both folds imo. Case 1 is a turbo muck and case 2 is just a muck though. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Brad

[zeropotential]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you figure that flop call is marginal? Hell, I might even raise here to knock the player behind me out and thus maybe get a freecard.

[/ QUOTE ]
what do you all feel about this idea?
i have a gut feeling it would be -EV in this situation
but thats just my gut...

[Nick Royale]

Yeah, this is an easy fold.

[Ralf]

Shill, he checkraised me, I called, and MP overcalled. Not my most brilliant moment.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this is an easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you figure that flop call is marginal? Hell, I might even raise here to knock the player behind me out and thus maybe get a freecard.

[/ QUOTE ]
I you belive a free card play would work frequently it can be good raising for a free card with marginal hands.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you figure that flop call is marginal? Hell, I might even raise here to knock the player behind me out and thus maybe get a freecard.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think we're behind often. Dangerous calling 1.5 SB hands by a TAGish player: 99 88 JTs ATs.

If we hit the J we're at least setting up a redraw (straight) and we might be rev.dominated by JTs ATs or already drawing really slim to 88. If I discount overs to 4 outs and add 1.5 for the backdoor flush we're getting 5.5 outs and 5.2 is required. It's a call, but pretty marginal IMO. Against a TAG I wouldn't try to get a freecard.

[adsman]

The freecard play is marginal as opposed to the chances of knocking out the player still to act. If we can get him to fold then we improve our chances of winning heads-up. (granted that in hindsight we know that he wouldn't fold. Also, if we know that the player still to act won't get out then I think that turns this from a raise into a fold. Having a third player who will call down all the way to the river will counterfiet enought of our outs to make this unprofitable to call.)