Pocket 9's. How's my line? Hey this rhymes.

[fluxrad]

Loose passive table as usual.

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">$pAde bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 folds, Hero folds, CO calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">$pAde bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

No super-stumpers here. I just want to doublecheck it's correct to fold this turn and the flop bet was ok.

[reubenf]

Have I gone mad, or did MP3 fold preflop then come back into the hand on the turn named $pAde?

EDIT: Looking back it seems the button just isn't listed preflop and on the flop.

[Deraj]

I think I would check this flop through here and as far as the turn check and fold, I agree there as well there are just too many overcards out there which you have virtually no redraws against.

[fluxrad]

[ QUOTE ]
Have I gone mad, or did MP3 fold preflop then come back into the hand on the turn named $pAde?

[/ QUOTE ]

LMFAO. I just realized Bison's language converter is probably written in Perl. The "$" makes the CGI think it's a variable and it either ditches the username or chokes on it.

[Cooker]

I don't see any reason to bet this flop. Do you really think you could possibly be ahead in a field of 7 with 2 overcards out there? No chance. Do you think you might fold a pair of tens or a pair of kings? Once again, no chance. Taking off a card for trips might be a close call if there is a bet and several callers, otherwise, be done with this hand. You may be getting 18 to 1 on a about a 23 to 1 shot to hit trips on the turn, but the implied odds of putting the whole field to a double sized check raise should more than make up for this seeming discrepancy.

Why not bet if you can call a bet? If you bet and get only 2 callers, then your odds wouldn't even have been close to take off a card, but since you are in late position, you get to know about how many callers there will be and how close your odds will be to correct. If the button bets and everyone folds to you, you have to fold. Furthermore, if the button raises, then you are stuck looking at another bet and your implied odds are wrecked. I think checking the flop planning to fold if there is a bet without many callers or call if the odds are close to correct is the best plan here.

If you were last, I think a free card play works nicely here, considering you will be about 11 to 1 to hit trips by the river and if you don't get check raised, you will certainly be getting better pot odds than that, but you couldn't hope to call a turn bet to see the end. However, you probably aren't going to be able to buy the button here and get your free card, because the CO and the button both called 2 cold suggesting high cards which means they are the players most likely to hit this flop.

[McGahee]

Man, scrolling these posts this morning, everybody's playing Paradise .25/.5. I take back everything I've said about it. It's a rock garden - don't play there! 2+2ers should stay away.

[flopwell]

lol...no wonder I have hit a wall there

[billy51]

I don't raise this pre-flop. There are two limpers ahead of you. 99 plays well either heads up or in a multiway pot. I would rather limp and try to get others to limp behind me and try to flop a set cheaply.

I know the charts in SSHE say to raise 99 from MP, but it also makes the point that raising with middle pairs should be isolation raises. Since there are already two people in the pot, I don't think a raise does much for you here.

[Dead]

I think it's a value raise.

[billy51]

Granted, you probably have the best hand right now, unless someone behind you wakes up with TT-AA, but I think the edge is pretty small. A lot of the time your raise will be building a pot with a hand that you will have to abandon when overcard(s) come on the flop and the betting makes it pretty clear that someone has flopped a higher pair and you are drawing to two outs. Also, even when you flop an overpair, your hand is very vulnerable. A lot of the time you will invest several more bets, only to be outdrawn on the turn or river.

On the other hand, if you limp and give up this small edge, you might make up for it by encouraging more people to enter the pot. If you flop your set and a couple of your opponents flop a pair, you can win a big pot.

[Cooker]

I think the raise preflop is probably okay without any reads. I will often make this play hoping to buy the button, and set up a free card play/semibluff on the flop if a couple of overcards hit. However, if CO and the button play a lot of hands including cold calling (which they probably have been), then I am probably going to limp along as well since I think a key piece to this raise is gaining position.

[Entity]

The preflop raise is fine.

The flop bet is marginal, I think. Probably depends on what you know about your opponents. Turn play is good.

Rob

[Cooker]

I would say the flop bet is somewhat worse than marginal. Probably not terribly bad in terms of EV right there (especially since everyone called making it okay, but a raise or a few folds is a disaster), but I cannot think of 1 possible valid reason to make it given an obvious better option. If you think of one valid reason to make this bet, please clue me in and I will change my mind to this being a marginal bet rather than a fairly obvious mistake.

By the way, the flop bet is a mistake. We all make them, I am not saying the poster is a bad player. I know there are times when I make bets like this in the heat of the moment, but it is important to realize when things are wrong and try to fix them in the future.

Too many people here have the attitude that,"I raised preflop, so I should go ahead and bet this flop." But here on the flop you are out of position with probably the worst hand against many opponents that will call too much. No better hand than yours is folding for 1 bet. The reason this is especially bad is that if it is raised with a few callers, you must call, but the play as a whole has now turned terribly -EV. However, if you check and someone bets with several callers, a call looks about right considering implied odds and if there is a check raise you can correctly fold having not put in the extra bet.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say the flop bet is somewhat worse than marginal. Probably not terribly bad in terms of EV right there (especially since everyone called making it okay, but a raise or a few folds is a disaster), but I cannot think of 1 possible valid reason to make it given an obvious better option. If you think of one valid reason to make this bet, please clue me in and I will change my mind to this being a marginal bet rather than a fairly obvious mistake.

By the way, the flop bet is a mistake. We all make them, I am not saying the poster is a bad player. I know there are times when I make bets like this in the heat of the moment, but it is important to realize when things are wrong and try to fix them in the future.

Too many people here have the attitude that,"I raised preflop, so I should go ahead and bet this flop." But here on the flop you are out of position with probably the worst hand against many opponents that will call too much. No better hand than yours is folding for 1 bet. The reason this is especially bad is that if it is raised with a few callers, you must call, but the play as a whole has now turned terribly -EV. However, if you check and someone bets with several callers, a call looks about right considering implied odds and if there is a check raise you can correctly fold having not put in the extra bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop bet isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. Two overcards sucks, but when it's been checked to you, you still have the best hand a reasonable (but not great) percentage of the time. 99 is too vulnerable to check it down, especially when some 6-outers may fold that shouldn't. Some better hands will fold as well, even though they shouldn't; hands like JT and T9s and such will be folded in the hands of a weaktight player. If a hand like JT folds here it's a coup, and it won't happen often, but it's worth a shot in a 12SB pot. Folding the CO would also be nice, as gaining great position for the remainder of the hand is nice.

If the CO will never fold, I will check the flop.

Rob

[Cooker]

The converter appears to have messed things up a little, but both the CO and the button are still to act on the flop and both cold called the preflop raise. With only one player behind, the chance to buy position and a free card makes the bet marginal. With no players behind, I would say that betting is the best option. With 2 players behind, the bet on the flop is clearly a mistake.