Why I Dislike Card Player's Tournament Rankings

[Mark Heide]

I took a look at Card Player's Player of the Year rankings to look at all the money that the tournament players have won this year. The magazine will give you a ranking, how many final tables, has a point system to rank a player, and tells you the winnings. Well, the winnings was hard for me to believe. So, I decided to see if I could come up with a more accurate figure by deducting the buy-ins from the winnings. I really wish they would post a buy-in column. It would be easy to do, since you have to register on the computer at major events. All of the casinos that sponsor these events could easily print out for Card Player the total amount of buy-ins for all players.

Everyone knows that T.J. Cloutier is a superstar tournament player and book writer. I decided to look at T.J.'s record for this year. He's ranked at 5, with a total of 4284 points, made 14 final tables, and his winnings are $198,092. It was hard for me to believe that he made this actual amount of money, because this amount does not include the total amount of buy-ins deducted from the winnings. So, I decided to figure this out myself. My figures could be off, since Card Player does not publish this information, and it does look more glamourous to show the winnings without deducting the expenses.

From the information I gathered at Card Player's website, T.J. played at the World Poker Open, LA Poker Classic, World Series of Poker, Legends of Poker, and the Hall of Fame Poker Classic. If you wanted to play at all the events you would need a bankroll of $180,990. I excluded the WSOP Gin Tournament, dealer, senior, and womens tournament entry fees. Since, T.J placed in 14 events, I excluded the tournaments fees that were need for the next days events, except for the Hall of Fame Poker classic events that ran on 9/10 and 9/11, since he placed in both. I estimate that T.J. played in 112 events making his total buy-in expenses to be $171,110. If you subtract the total winnings from the buy-ins you end up with $27,182 for profits. That's the number I believe Card Player should put in the winning column.

So, do you still want to be a tournament star? It appears you get a lot of fame without the fortune. A good $6-12 Limit Hold'em player that averaged 1 1/2 big bets an hour would be in better financial shape than T.J. (only counting his tournament profit). Don't forget that when you play tournaments that are out of town, you will be paying for hotel and traveling expenses. But, you could probably gain an edge if you cheat, work with a team, and get backers to part with their cash. At least to me the tournament trail does not look so glamourous.

Good Luck

Mark

[HDPM]

Interesting and might be why TJ isn't rolling in dough. But did he (or other tourn pros) get buy-ins from satellites? Some of those guys have to have a high expectation in sats. which would lower their expenses and projected expenses. But I tend to agree with you on the profitability of tourns.

[Glenn]

There is an interesting RGP thread (I know, oxymoron) on this subject. Daniel even gave his overall stats for the year thus far. You might want to check it out if you haven't already.

-Glenn

[Mason Malmuth]

[MichaelD]

Mark,

You present some very thought provoking thoughts on this subject. While I attend some of the major tournamnets, I usually do not enter many events - 1 event per tournament at best, and usually I will try and get in via satellite. I simply go to the tournaments for the 30-60 up to 60-120 side games. I have found them to be very good games indeed.

Some poker colleagues of mine have criticized my not participating more in the tournament events. I have always felt no matter how good I play or how lucky I get, I am still at somewhat of a disadvantage against a full time tournament professional - if not based soley on experience alone.

Your thoughts confirm my idea that it is best, at least for me personally, to pick and choose my events and mostly stay with the money games. I have enough expenses without having to absorb another 200k in entry fees. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

Good post.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

Once you factor in deals and payoffs to backers, TJ has the same level of income as a 50 cent-$1.00 limit player. Probably worse. But he can look on the bright side. At least he is not losing money as his backers surely are. I wonder how well McEvoy has been doing this past 10 years.

[Mason Malmuth]

As nasty as this post is, I really think there is a lot of truth to it. Now there's no question in my mind that Cloutier has done very well playing tournaments the past few years, but I don't believe that to be the case with many of the better known names. Life on the tournament trail can be pretty tough, and it is definitely not always as glamorous as it is sometimes made out to be.

MM /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

[Anadrol 50]

Glenn,

Could you post a link to that thread. I couldn't find it.

[scalf]

,...mason...hey read tom's books on poker...he probably made more selling the books than s+m...and then got to play against players who actually took his advice seriously...no one complains about tom's books ruining he or tournies; now do they???jmho..gl /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Mark Heide]

HDPM,

Unforunately, there's no way to track what players do on satellites, expect for the initial buy-in for Binion's WSOP Super-Satellite, since you have to register. But, I don't know anyone that makes money from them, except for the Casinos since their fee is 10% for the initial buy-in of the supers.

Maybe, there is someone successful. But, if there was I'm sure they would be bragging about it.

Good Luck

Mark

[Mark Heide]

Anonymous,

The main reason I used T.J. Cloutier for this example is because he is making a living off of tournaments. He is considered an excellent poker player by his peers and has withstood the test of time. He is one of the few that is truely successful at tournaments. I believe this is just his average that he makes a year, unless he places in the top three places of a major event, like the WSOP 2000 Final Event where he came in second. I believe that in order to be successful at tournaments, you have to place in these major buy-in events or you'll be broke eventually.

Lastly, I made a comparison to playing $6-$12 Hold'em to demonstrate that a good poker player could make just as much money as T.J. (note that I'm only considering income from T.J.'s tournament play) with lesser skills and limited risk.

Good Luck

Mark

[Mark Heide]

Thanks.

[Mark Heide]

MichaelD,

From my observations, the side games are the best reason to go to some of these events. Try the WPO in January during the first week. Last year they offered rooms for $35 a night.

The reason I pick the first week is because the weaker players still have their bankroll. I plan to play $10-$20 while the $500 events are playing. There will be a lot of players showing up for the $500 Limit Hold'em event, and many of these players are weak. This makes the normal games good, because all these limit hold'em players will be looking for a game to play, and most usually bust out of the tournament within four hours.

I have not had any real success with satellites and I'll avoid them. But, I do plan on playing one $500 event.

Good Luck

Mark

[Mark Heide]

scalf,

Actually, I think Tom's and Cloutier's books helped promote more interest in playing tournaments, and some of the advice in their books is good.

I believe the market for their books is aimed at novice players, and makes playing tournaments seem like easy money. Just so I don't start another controversy, I agree with Mason Malmuth's reviews of the books in his Gambling Theory book.

Lastly, I purposely used T.J. because he is a superstar and he is ranked #5 this year. How do you think all the other players ranked below him will last. There will only be a few like T.J. that can withstand the test of time.

Good Luck

Mark

[J_V]

McEvoy didn't make a fraction of what S&M made in book sales. Its not even close.

His book is a total joke. I would hardly call myself a munchkin, but the S&M tournament book is damn good, and the cloutier, mcevoy book is garbage.

[Glenn]

The title of the thread is

Tourney pro's Bonnetti,Miami john,cunnigham

Link (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3vNe9.66403%24Ic7.4828952%40news2.west.c ox.net&rnum=2&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dbadger%2Bdaniel%2Btournament%2Bdrug%2 6hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D3vNe9.66403%2524Ic7.4828952%2540news2.w est.cox.net%26rnum%3D2)

Also Try:

Tournament Player Breakdown, by Daniel N.

Link (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=20020908024556.12974.00002543%40mb-mg.aol.com&rnum=3&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Ddaniel%2Bnegreanu%2Bjuanda%2Bnguyen%2 Bchan%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D20020908024556.12974.00002543%2540mb-mg.aol.com%26rnum%3D3)

Now please don't ever make me go back there again...

[GrannyMae]

Now please don't ever make me go back there again..


ROFL.. at least YOU are not being accused by Russ of being Todd Brunson

GCA Post (http://www.recpoker.com/article.php?gID=1&ID=87572)

/forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif