Proud as hell of this play :) AA [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Belok

03-06-2005, 09:27 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO caps, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (16.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (16.16 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

River: (20.16 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 28.16 BB

Wont be able to answer any comments for a few hours...12 tbaling

SackUp

03-06-2005, 09:41 PM

Why didn't you bet out on the flop? Don't you think you are chancing scarying away utg+1 and mp2 by making them call two bets cold as opposed to 1 bet and then a raise?

Same line on the river. I think you are losing bets here. You miss out on 3 calling one bet as opposed to 1 calling two bets and scaring out the others. And you chance the river being checked through as well. I know you hoped that UTG hit his flush as he did, but that is a risky play. If he does hit his flush then he is likely going to cap anyhow.

You lucked out that everyone called cold on the flop. I think typically this line would not follow though. Also you lucked out on the river.

private joker

03-06-2005, 09:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you bet out on the flop? Don't you think you are chancing scarying [sic] away utg+1 and mp2 by making them call two bets cold as opposed to 1 bet and then a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

AA is a vulnerable hand in a 4-way pot, so I like using CO as a means to check-raise and protect your hand. This flop play is very good.

[ QUOTE ]

Also you lucked out on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying he lucked out that he filled up? Or he lucked out that a heart hit to give him action? Obviously, the A/images/graemlins/heart.gif is the only heart Hero wanted to see, but I think he had the best hand prior to the river, and just as he improved, the flush draw improved to second best. Nothing wrong with this at all. That said, I would have bet this river and it's probably the better play. I just don't think Hero "lucked out."

masonx

03-06-2005, 10:06 PM

i agree more w/ private. i like the flop c/r

Although betting out the river is the better play

krishanleong

03-06-2005, 10:12 PM

The river cr is the correct play.

Krishan

Belok

03-06-2005, 10:19 PM

Well i've got 12 tables going still, so ill try to defend my play.

I was damn near 100% sure CO would bet. he very obviously either had KK-JJ or AK/AQ, either way he would have bet

The other 2 cold called my raise preflop, and then cold called the other 2 after the reraises. And after being calling stations on the flop, they obviously werent pros, i figure one of them had to have the flush draw.

If either of the fish had better than me on that board, it would have been made obvious. The best play was to use CO to get as many bets out of the fish as possible.

The fact that the river gave me the boat and him the flush was fortunate but only 4 bets of the profit came from that card.

Nate tha' Great

03-06-2005, 10:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was damn near 100% sure CO would bet. he very obviously either had KK-JJ or AK/AQ, either way he would have bet

[/ QUOTE ]

So the CO bets and you ... check-raise and make everyone fold? Call and hope to collect overcalls with the nuts?

Bad play, dude. If you knew that UTG+1 would bet, that would be a valid reason for check-raising.

LoaferGee12

03-06-2005, 10:41 PM

I think he is talking about the flop here.

Belok

03-06-2005, 10:47 PM

nate...you saw in the hand that i checkraised.
You dont want to push out drawers? You dont want to make the flush drawer pay as much as possible? I seem to be misunderstanding the point of the game...explain why we want to give drawers odds?

27offsooot

03-06-2005, 10:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The best play was to use CO to get as many bets out of the fish as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why not bet and 3-bet the flop and hope CO caps and just keep betting?

27offsooot

03-06-2005, 10:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
nate...you saw in the hand that i checkraised.
You dont want to push out drawers? You dont want to make the flush drawer pay as much as possible? I seem to be misunderstanding the point of the game...explain why we want to give drawers odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

What "drawers" are going to fold to two bets on the flop? If You knew that CO would very likely raise your lead, wouldn't you ensure that draws pay the most by then three-betting?

Belok

03-06-2005, 11:29 PM

I dont see many people who wouldnt cap an uncoordinated flop with an overpair.

And i didnt necessarily think id push a flushdraw out. but a backdoor flush or a gutshot draw wouldnt be too eager to call 2 bets.

bakku

03-06-2005, 11:33 PM

sinfulslick18

03-07-2005, 12:22 AM

def. need to bet out on the river. It was nice that it did work out for you tho.

-sinful

me454555

03-07-2005, 01:35 AM

So let me get this strait, you proud of your flop checkraise b/c you gave everyone 19.3:2 (9:1) to call instead of betting out/3betting and causing them to put in 3 bets on the flop instead of just 2.

The fact is that your checkraise won't eliminate any draw b/c the pot is just too big. Everyone except for a pp is getting the correct odds to call. CO obviously has a strong holding so you might want to bet out and see if he raises and give you a chance to 3 bet. This will allow you to charge the draws the maximum.

hate

03-07-2005, 01:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
nate...you saw in the hand that i checkraised.
You dont want to push out drawers? You dont want to make the flush drawer pay as much as possible? I seem to be misunderstanding the point of the game...explain why we want to give drawers odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that you're likely ahead here. This is an uncoordinated 2-flush board. No flush draw's going to fold, and whether you charge them 3 bets to see the turn in a bet/raise/3-bet or 2 in a checkraise is just you missing 1SB worth of value from the field.

sfer

03-07-2005, 01:57 AM

Jesus there's a lot of nitpicking. I like it. Ni han.

sfer

03-07-2005, 02:03 AM

You're not trying to fold the frush draws. They're coming along. The 3-5 out draws you want to fold, and you have to give them that chance.

Betting intending to 3-bet is much worse in this hand than checking intending to checkraise because of the preflop action. You're much more likely to get an AK autobet than a flop 3-bet from anything except AA/KK or AK hearts and checkraising gives you a chance of folding the weak draws, which you definitely want to fold. You don't want bottom pair blah kicker calling. For that matter, you really don't want a pocket pair with a heart calling a single flop bet.

The only thing to consider on the flop is possibly checkraising the turn after you get 3-bet.

sfer

03-07-2005, 02:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
def. need to bet out on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking the river was just awesome. The CO and his KK will call a single bet in that huge pot a lot and you still get to go to war with the frush.

hate

03-07-2005, 02:12 AM

5 outers aren't folding here calling two, 4 outers will more than likely call here too.

sfer

03-07-2005, 02:13 AM

That doesn't mean you shouldn't do everything you can to protect your hand.

Belok

03-07-2005, 02:07 PM

Thanks sfer.
Glad im not the only one who thinks its good.

ErrantNight

03-07-2005, 02:15 PM

nice. next.