Good play or good cards?

Paradise 2-4. I'm bring-in with (66) 2. Two players fold, third raises with queen in the door, two call. I call.

Fourth street: He catches a seven, I catch an ace, the others catch bricks. Queens, sixes and aces all completely live. I was planning to fold unless I hit a six or deuce, but now I've got an overcard. The player who raised third is a very predictable and weak opponent, who is not very aggressive. I bet my ace, he calls and the others fold

Fifth street: I catch my six for hidden trips, he catches a king (both our boards are rainbow). I check, he bets, I raise, he calls.

Sixth and seventh: I fill with a deuce on sixth, bet and am called on both streets and take it down.

I've been rereading Theory of Poker, and the play on fourth seems to me to be a good semi-bluff. I have five outs (three aces and two sixes). Plus, my best card (the six) won't look scary, while my lesser card (the ace) will look very scary.

The pot is laying me about 4-1 here on my bet -- and I know this opponent is unlikely to play back. In fact, if he does I can probably fold.

I was getting decent odds here, but the real key was knowing my opponent. Would other make this play -- or is it too costly when I miss, since I'll have to check/fold on fifth?

players in my live casino game that play like U, I ALWAYS go home crying!
Playing with types like U ALWAYS give me a "heartburn"LOL!
Your plays were executed perfectly.
Nice "take down".
Happy pokering.
Sitting Bull

[Dynasty]

Would other make this play -- or is it too costly when I miss, since I'll have to check/fold on fifth?

The play is standard although you may checkraise on fourth street instead.

You are making a big mistake by folding a pair of 6's with an Ace kicker against a pair of Queens. You should be going to the river unless your opponent's board shows serious improvement. You will frequently win the hand by making two-pair such as 6's and 2's when your opponent doesn't improved on his pair of Queens. Calling on 4th and then folding on 5th is a strategy for throwing money away

I would usually take a card off here. However, if you want the other players to fold, I would check on 4th. Now they have the Q betting at them again, with an ace behind. Your bet and the Q calling makes it more likely the other stay, since the last of them can "close the betting on 4th".

If you check and the Q checks, you will either get a free card, or perhaps even raise out the queen depending on what the others likely have and how they play. You may also have a fold if, say, the Q bets, and is raised adn cold-called. You check will get you cheaper info, and a better chance at a heads - up pot.

in the paradise 2-4 game. Unlike bigger games where I think players are both more willing to fold and more selective about starting standards, in this game it can be very costly to get called down by one or two stubborn, passive players. You have to pick your spots for aggression, and get off fast in this game. Look at the numbers: On 4th street with three other players who called a $1 raise on 3rd, I'm betting or calling $2 with $9 in the pot. Now let's say two others stay to fifth. Now I'm betting or calling $4 with $14 in the pot (I'm adding in rake). I've gone from getting 4.5-1 on my bet
to 3.5-1. What's more, if my hand hasn't improved, on fifth my five outs to strong hands make me a 7-1 dog to hit, or just 3.5-1. That's not counting the times I get redrawn on, and my hand has little redraw potential. I've found that IN THIS GAME I make my money by being limping pretty often, being aggressive early and keeping it up only when I'm ahead. My edge is that others will call in the situation you describe, sometimes with hands that have virtually no chance to win. The hand I posted is an example -- I probably about break even on the bluffs I make. Where they make me money is in getting called down when I make a strong hand.

Now I understand that against stronger competition, players who will play back at you and will fold when you hit your hand, this style may not work as well. Also, in a $1-5 spread limit game with .50 ante, your play is now likely to be correct -- the extra ante money plus possibility of betting higher early makes the pot large enough to call.

Unlike many posters (Andy B. in particular) who say structure doesn't matter, I find it is extremely important in my success at low limits. For example, I consistently beat the 2-4 on Paradise and consistently lose in the $1-5 game -- in part because I just don't play loose enough.

[Andy B]

When have I ever said that structure doesn't matter? I have said many times that it is possible to beat games with high antes and obscene rakes, because I have done it. I have said that the most important factor in a the beatability of a game is the difference in ability between you and your opponents. I can't imagine that structure alone would make a game unbeatable. I have never said, nor even suggested, that the structure of a game doesn't matter, and I can't imagine why you would think that I have.

Let's take your hand, for example. You haven't told us what the structure is. I don't think that the structure for $2/4 is universal. At Canterbury Park, the ante is $.50 and the bring-in is $1. I believe that on Paradise, the ante is $.25 and the bring-in is $1. I think this makes a difference. To be sure, it makes a difference whether the bring-in is $1 or some other amount. If it's a $.25 ante and a $.50 bring-in, I think you have a fold on third street. If you're already half in, you should call. If you are really planning on folding if you don't catch a Six or a Deuce on fourth street, however, you might consider folding on third street, as you may not have the implied odds necessary.

Having caught the Ace, betting is fine. You should not, however, fold to a raise. You have sufficient odds to chase, and you can always muck if your opponent catches something threatening. I like the check-raise on fifth. The rest of the hand was automatic.

Andy, I didn't mean to imply that you said structure doesn't matter. I think you are probably a strong enough player that different structures make less of a difference to you, and that's really what I was referring to. For me, the specific structure of a $1-5 spread limit game with .50 ante, $1 bring in which makes looser play correct, is very tough. I HATE calling on fifth with an underpair and overcard for example. Sklansky notes that you are really looking for big advantages in low limit games, where you're better than most other players, and that's my approach. In high ante games, you end up in too many high variance situatons with low positive EV.

I'm looking forward to moving up to $5-10 stud wi/ .50 ante
and $2 bring in, as I think this structure will allow me to be aggressive early and get off on fifth if I don't hit. But I understand that as the players get stronger at higher limits, I'm going to adjust to players who will play back and bluff more, too.

[CJC]

MRB,

I have to agree with Dynasty here. That is a relative standard play. ( and one you must defend against mind you )

One more thing. I don't like the checkraise on 5th here. Once you have bet the Ace on 4th, ( in the lower limits ) you might have intimidated many opponents into checking behind you on fifth for the Big Bet. Thats a big no-no.

Hope to see you up at Foxwoods soon.

CJ

[Andy B]

I have only played once in a game with no ante. The smallest game in my local room is usually $2/4 with a $.50 ante, but on Thursdays they spread a $1/2 game with no ante and a $.50 bring-in. I played in it once. I like to be able to say that I've played every game they spread. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif It occured to me that I would do quite well in such a game, because I could just sit around and wait for the nuts. I wouldn't enjoy such a game as much as a "real" stud game, but it would be more profitable with less variance.

You shouldn't hate calling with smaller pairs and overcards once you've got that big ante. You should like playing correctly, and calling the bring-in with any live pair/live kicker is correct in your game as long as players are bad enough to pay you off when you hit your door card (this isn't as important if your pair is hidden). One thing I like about stud as opposed to hold'em is that I get to suck out on the other guy every once in a while. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

It's true that big advantages are going to be your main source of profit in a low-limit game. There are many situations which would be marginally profitable in larger games, but which get neutralized by the 10% rake in a small game. Nonetheless, I feel that marginally profitable situations are the essence of poker. Anyone can bet the nuts. It's essential to recognize the proper end of a 60/40 proposition and exploit it. It will make the game more profitable, and more fun. It will also prepare you to move up in limits.

I will share with you a hand that I played earlier this year which was instrumental in my development as a poker player. It was a $15/30 game with a $2 ante. I was one of a largish number of $5 limpers with (55)6. It was checked around on fourth. On fifth, I made an open pair of Treys and bet. I was raised by a player who is well-known in poker circles. I don't remember his exact board, but his fifth street card was suited with his door card, and his fourth street card was an off-suit Deuce. This looked a bit like a free card raise to me, something like a four-flush and a pair of Deuces (which is what he had; along with several overcards to my apparent Sixes). At this point, we were heads-up. On sixth I caught a Four, for an open-ended straight, and he caught a blank. I bet into him again, which surprised him. He called. I didn't improve on the river and checked. He bet and I called. His hand was Eights and Deuces. I was truly inspired by this. He made a thin value bet (actually, not all that thin, but I could have had pocket Nines or something) and got paid off by a worse hand. Most players miss that bet. I miss that bet sometimes myself. I do, however, make a lot more thin value bets than I used to. I really get a charge out of them, and I think you should try them. You might like it! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif