Quieting a jerk

[Noo Yawk]

You've seen this guy before. The loudmouth that read a book or two and insists on berating the weaker players. This guy was turning a good game into round after round of chopping.
I raise his BB first in from the Button with 9-10o. SB folds, he 3 bets, I call. The flop comes A-A-4. He bets, I raise, he folds his Q's face up. Makes a comment that I'm lucky and starts quoting odds. I stack his chips and turn over my 9-10. Very out of character for me. He was quiet for the rest of the night, and the table got back to being fun.
While there is a gratifying feeling here, is this something I should avoid?

[Al Schoonmaker]

You asked: "While there is a gratifying feeling here, is this something I should avoid?"

My answer could not be simpler: YES.

Sure, it worked out OK, but you could easily have lost a fair amount of money. You essentially rewarded him for being an obnoxious jerk. Just because it worked out well for you, don't pat yourself on the back.

Just ask yourself one question: Did I play the hand improperly because of a desire to "quiet a jerk" (or relieve any other emotional tension)?

Here the answer is quite obvious. You did play it improperly, and you did so for emotional reasons. Making mistakes for emotional reasons MUST cost you lots of chips over the long term.

Al

[Vehn]

Uhm I think he played it perfectly.

And yes I show there to that kind of opponent, mostly because it will get you action later in a tight game as described.

Also I just like putting nits in their place.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Best thing to do with these guys is to play well and ignore their remarks. I had a smart-ass in my game yesterday who taunted me after I won a hand. I didn't even look at him! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/cool.gif Go "Tommy Angelo" on these players and "shut down".... No emotion, No reinforcement, just detachment. BTW, I do agree with Alan that you played the hand improperly after the flop. Don't put your chips at risk to "prove a point". Remember Babe's Motto at all times....LGPG. Babe

[Noo Yawk]

The play of the hand was not really the point I was getting at. I played the hand to steal the blinds from weak- tight opponents, and I believe it is somewhat routine if I know my opponent is a folder. I didn't play this way to get him because he was a jerk.
What I did that bothered me later was expose my hand after. That's something that may have taken away future bluff opportunities, and is just plain show boating.
Thanks for the input. I posted the situation hoping to be chastised so I wouldn't do it again!

[bernie]

the tables already tightened up so it wont have that effect. haha

im amused at these guys. i find em entertaining. BUT i dont like when they tighten up the donators. when the fish are biting, dont throw rocks in the water.

whats so funny is that they think they know so much about the game that they dont realize that they want the players to play that badly. they forgot to read that part in all the books. these are the guys who end up in the fetal position at home mumbling to themselves how great they are....even though theyre busted. the idiots

funny when they quote odds when they dont see your hand. even you turning over KK wouldve been funny. but your hand had a greater effect.

if the end result was that the table got back to being fun, how could it have been wrong? good move, i think. screw him. id rather have just one guy playing tight than 7 or 8.

i think you picked the right spot to do it...

see yuz...

b

[Jedi Poker]

"I stack his chips and turn over my 9-10. Very out of character for me..." Comment: This (impulsive?) action on your part is feedback from you to you telling you that you currently CAN be vulnerable to being influenced by other people's behaviors, whether those behaviors are deliberate or accidental. This could be a personal weakness on your part that is worth looking into. There are expert psychological manipulators out there who are very good at using irritating talk and actions to induce others into making impulsive and irrational decisions. By studying why and how you responded the way you did in this particular instance, you can prevent yourself from falling into their spells in the future.
Everthing I've written in this post applies only if you showed your 9-10 impulsively. I you were being strategic and deliberate when you did it, disregard this post.

[Noo Yawk]

As usual you have me looking hard at this. Before reading your post I would say it was 80% strategic. The more I think about it, it was probably 50% strategic, 50% for my own personal amusement!.

[Jedi Poker]

Ideally, you want a tight-aggressive image. This image will allow you to semi/bluff/steal more effectively, make gaining freecards easier, and make your "thinning the field" plays more effective. By showing, you projected an image that leans towards the loose-aggressive side. This is not nescessariy bad since it will give your more action on your value bets, raises, and check-raises. But it will make it more difficult for you to effectively execute the plays that come as a priviledge of being perceived as tight-aggressive.
As for your play in this particular hand, I like it. You were playing for a steal and had the guts to follow thru when it didn't work.

excellent plays. However,his reason(s) for playing like he did were incorrect if he sincerely believe his opponent had him beat on the flop.
If his pre-flop and post-flop plays were emotionally motivated,then his REASONS for playing this way were INCORRECT! However,the irony of the situation is that he DID play correctly pre- and post-flop--EVEN if his reason(s for doing so were not correct-- a bluff-raise by a good player is a classical play if the good player puts his opponent on either a weak hand like a small pair,high cards,etc. Note that in this case,he convinced the "jerk" that he had a set of "A's". The "jerk" played well by surrendering his pocket Q's". I think this "jerk" is an above-average player.
Any average or weaker player would HAVE to "keep U honest"
I myself, would have FOLDED my "Q's" to a raise.

HOWEVER,he DID make a MAJOR MAGOO by SHOWING his hand
because he diminished his future bluffing advantage(s).
He let his ARROGANCE interfere with his play(s).

BTW, your article on "Arrogance" was very informative. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with your readers.

Happy pokering!
Sitting Bull

[Dynasty]

The hand was not played improperly. "Table coaches" are very vulnerable to bluffs and raising the flop will get many better hands to fold.

[Jedi Poker]

One thing I've observed about "table coaches" is that many (but not all) of them have FPS that's biased towards folding. They seem to be proud of their hand reading skills and hence their abilities to make "great laydowns". I can't count the number of times I've exploited this tendency in the past.
Fancy Play Syndrome players who ALSO lecture at the table and criticize other players' plays tend to have a bias towards folding and "solid" (because they misguidedly think having memorized S&M's starting hand rankings makes them experts) play. FPS players who don't lecture tend to have a bias towards overbluffing and loose "creative" play.

[Tommy Angelo]

"Makes a comment that I'm lucky ..."

You could say, "You are right. I am lucky. I am lucky to have you as a friend."

To your hand ...

In the spirit of cards-are-digital-and-people-are-analog, I don't see a clear distinction between "playing a hand," as in, betting, and "playing a hand," as in, commenting during or after the hand, or slowrolling, or showing a hand when you don't have to, like you did, or any eye gesture or body motion or all of the other minutest little things that we must do simply because we exist and we are organisms. It's all part of playing, the way I see it. There are many games within the game we call poker.

One game is to try to shock or humiliate or otherwise ruffle an opponent and claim victory when he reacts. One way to do that is to say things, with voice or otherwise. One way to win those games is to play on the other man's level and try to beat him at the game he started under his conditions. Another way to win those games is to not acknowledge them as a viable contest. That's what I do. And it feels like I'm undefeated in this venue.

Tommy

[Al Schoonmaker]

This entire thread illustrates the strength of this forum. Noo Yawk asked a question, got lots of answers, learned something about himself, and taught us all an important lesson.

I think the most important element of this thread was the emphasis upon understanding WHY we are taking certain actions. We could make good arguments for or against any bet or raise, but one point is absolutely critical. Know why we are doing it.

If we act impulsively, or if our primary motive is to punish or teach someone a lesson, it's probably going to cost us in the long run.

We also saw how easy it is to deceive ourselves about our motives. We all take emotional actions, then rationalize that we had a better reason.

Noo Yawk, you're to be congratulated for being so open-minded and receptive to criticism. As long as you remain that way, your game (and perhaps some more important aspects of your life) will continue to grow.

Regards,

Al

[Herb N.]

You simply out played the Jerk..BUT showing your hand lowers yourself to his leavel..Always play fair,and play with class you wont regret it.... /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[J_V]

Not to be rude, but you don't stike me as a poker player. Stick to psychology. This hand was not improperly played because he made a bluff. If the flop was Ace high, it is a very common play against a decent player.

[Noo Yawk]

I appreciate your kind words Al.
As I look back on this thread 2 days removed from the situation, it's very clear that I never should have shown my hand. When it happened, the table was obviously hoping I would beat this guy. At the time, I thought of myself as the protector of all things good. The fact is, had he never showed me his hand or made a comment, nobody would have seen my cards. This in itself tells me my purpose was self serving for the moment, but hurt any hope of stealing later on.
Thanks again to all who responded.

[bad beetz]

It's probably not a good thing money wise, assuming you stay at the table (not hugely bad either) , but it's so satisfying I would do it too. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[M.B.E.]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
As I look back on this thread 2 days removed from the situation, it's very clear that I never should have shown my hand. When it happened, the table was obviously hoping I would beat this guy. At the time, I thought of myself as the protector of all things good. The fact is, had he never showed me his hand or made a comment, nobody would have seen my cards. This in itself tells me my purpose was self serving for the moment, but hurt any hope of stealing later on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Showing your hand (after the jerk exposed his cards) almost certainly helped your future EV rather than hurt it. True, you're not going to be able to steal many more pots for the rest of that session -- from the jerk or anyone else -- but you made the jerk look like a fool which has four benefits for your bankroll:
(1) any bad players at the table who were starting to play better because they trusted the jerk's advice should go back to their previous style of play;
(2) you gave everyone a laugh, at the benefit of the jerk, which should in itself loosen the game up;
(3) the jerk might go on tilt; and
(4) the jerk might leave the table.
These four factors should outweigh the negative effects of not being able to steal for a while.