AQo preflop call, bad beat or bad call, or both

[pshea]

Home game, 6 players, I'm SB.

Blinds .25, .50

all players limp to dealer, dealer raises preflop to $12

I call, BB folds, next guy folds, MP calls, and folded to dealer.

Pot $37.50

Flop: A /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I go all in 88.25, folded to dealer, he calls, he has me covered by about 50.00.

I show A /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

He shows A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Turn, K /images/graemlins/spade.gif, river 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I lose, was this a bad play on my part, the $12 was a standard preflop raise for any pocket pair or big cards for the dealer, so I don't think my preflop call was bad, some of you may think it was however.

I guess my question was is this just a bad beat, or bad play on my part.

Thanks, my first post, love the forum.

[amoeba]

its hard for us to give homegame advice as the structure is so different.

Here you were playing fairly deepstacked at almost 200xBB.

anyways, preflop call is not good with AQo. most of the time you won't make 2 pair+ on the flop.

flop push is good if you believe he will call you with AK AJ AT.

obviously he bat beat you on the turn.

flop push is ok if read on him is accurate but preflop call is pretty bad.

[MyMindIsGoing]

AQ has never been a good calling hand and especialy with that big of a raise. He has top pair top kicker, inside straight draw and a back door flushdraw on a shorthanded table after over raising preflop. He hits one of his seven outs witch is about 28% chance. Wouldn't call it a bad beat at all.

[kongo_totte]

Both. Fold pre-flop. Calling 10%+ of your stack out of position with a borderline hand is not good. And since this is his standard, and there is a whole table still to act, who I assume also knows this is standard for him I'm picking a better spot. Judging from villians play on all streets, I guess opportunities to stack him should be pretty common.

Why the massive over bet on the flop? Did you think villian would call such a bet w/ just TPTK. If you thought he would, I guess it's fine, but lacking the knowledge that villian is a total moron, I don'´t like it.

The rest of the hand is of course a bad beat. I guess you read him well on the flop, but I'm always folding PF and rarely open push the flop.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't call it a bad beat at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't a bad beat when you get your money in with the best hand and a dominated hand out draws you?

[pshea]

My massive over bet on the flop was to scare away any flush draws with 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif's on board. (was beaten two hands earlier with nut flush, had nut straight on the turn, he caught on the river).

I guess it comes down to over playing my AQo preflop, even though I have a pretty good read on villian, in my mind he could have just as eaisily had a pair of 8's. Rough game, lots of loose callers, lots of sucking out, lot's of money to be made, but when I get a hand while playing with these guys I feel like I have to try and take the pot immediatly. Guess I have to work on that.

[Chipp Leider]

Villain isn't dominated, he's got about 8 equivalent outs here.

[amoeba]

when you have TPTK + and villain is on flush draw, you want him to call.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain isn't dominated, he's got about 8 equivalent outs here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Define dominated.

[MyMindIsGoing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't call it a bad beat at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't a bad beat when you get your money in with the best hand and a dominated hand out draws you?

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is how you define bad beat then I have them all the time too. AK was 29.6% chance to win that hand from the flop til showdown. The hand was porly played as I see it. Never ever would I call that preflop raise with AQ. And then overplay it on the flop. The only reasonable hands he will make villian fold is KK and JJ. If villian has AA or QQ or AK he will call. And villian will only be behind on one of them. Overbetting that flop like that screams flushdraw to me, and if villian thought he was up agaist a draw he did right in calling. Even if he thought that hero sometimes will have two pair and sometimes flushdraw and combine them he would do a positive EV move by calling.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't call it a bad beat at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't a bad beat when you get your money in with the best hand and a dominated hand out draws you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, so if he had actually won the hand after calling off 24BB preflop with three outs then it would have been a bad beat.

[pshea]

Thanks for the response, I obviously have a lot to learn. I think I let the play of prior hands that session dictate my play on this hand, didn't want to get beaten by the flush again, instead he gets one of his outs anyways and I'm in my car, lol.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't call it a bad beat at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't a bad beat when you get your money in with the best hand and a dominated hand out draws you?

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is how you define bad beat then I have them all the time too. AK was 29.6% chance to win that hand from the flop til showdown. The hand was porly played as I see it. Never ever would I call that preflop raise with AQ. And then overplay it on the flop. The only reasonable hands he will make villian fold is KK and JJ. If villian has AA or QQ or AK he will call. And villian will only be behind on one of them. Overbetting that flop like that screams flushdraw to me, and if villian thought he was up agaist a draw he did right in calling. Even if he thought that hero sometimes will have two pair and sometimes flushdraw and combine them he would do a positive EV move by calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad beating another player does not nesceserily has to be a result of bad play, just a result of getting the money in with the worst hand. You can play correctly and still bad beat someone.

[amoeba]

29.6 is not that high.AK vs KK preflop is better than 29.6.

if overbetting like that screams flushdraw then overbetting is obviously the right move as AK will call as it did here.

its just silly for villain to call this push with still fairly deep stacks on AQT board with AK but thats just me.

[pshea]

Where can I learn more about EV? I'm lost when it comes to that stuff, read SSHE, loved it, and it led me to this site. Thanks.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
Where can I learn more about EV? I'm lost when it comes to that stuff, read SSHE, loved it, and it led me to this site. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky's Theory of Poker. IMO the best poker book written.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain isn't dominated, he's got about 8 equivalent outs here.

[/ QUOTE ]

he's reverse dominated to use the SSH term.

[soah]

He has other outs though.

[MyMindIsGoing]

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Where can I learn more about EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.pokertips.org/strategy/expected-value.php

Pretty short but might clear a few things.