Please help me fix my leak, VPIP too high.

[Hellmouth]

I have played about 1000 hands at .25/.50 at paradise and have identified what I consider to be a costly leak, however, I dont know how to fix it.

My VPIP is 26% and I try to strictly play the SSHe guidlines.

It seems to me that the just playing the big blind contributes to almost half of this (usually 8 players actually playing so 10-12%)

Ive tried to stop completing the small blind without a hand that actually looks promising. I used to play any two suited cards (as per SSHe) but now only play them if they are connected or have some high card strength.

My one weakness is sometimes playing two offsuit cards ten our better out of position. I will sometimes play them upfront when I know that they should be only played from mid to late position.

Should I just stop playing anything but pocket pairs and strong suited cards (ten or better)? That seems to be the only way I can see getting my VPIP below 20% If 10% comes from the big blind then 15% or more means playing one other hand per two cycles of the blind. Ive been seeing more playable hands than that.

What should I do? Is it worth tightening up just to fix this stat when I am giving up on playable hands? (according to SSHe) If you would play less hands then the SSHE tight guidelines, what would they be?

Thanks,
Greg

[Bokonnon]

The V in VP$IP stands for "voluntarily" -- Unless you call a raise or bet or call post-flop, the big blind doesn't count.

I'm fairly new here myself, so this is not expert advice, but I'll give you my two cents (FWIW, I'm doing pretty well at .50/1 and 1/2 over 9,000 hands with a vp$ip of 18%, pfr 8.5%):

Be very careful of big unsuited cards. Besides the fact that you will make so many second-best hands (KJ losing to AJ, for example), in multi-way pots you are often giving up implied odds to everybody else's draws, even if your top pair is good.

IMO, Raise w/ AQo, AJo or KQo if you think doing so will tend to limit the field. Raise w/ ATo, KJo, QJo, KTo if you are in fairly late position and no one else has called. Don't call raises with these cards, and don't limp with them very often, unless there are a lot of loose callers. Even then, be prepared to get rid of it if you don't get 2 pr or a str8 draw, because of the times you will hit your hand and be dominated.

This should get you under 20%.

[Hellmouth]

I didnt realize that the V meant that BB checks didnt count. That is disturbing since it means that I am betting on average 2-3 times per orbit on non-BB hands. Yikes. I must be in denial because I thought I was betting less. I agree, it is time to stop playing Big unsuited cards so much.

Does a Raise also count into VPIP % as two separate bets? Does calling a raise after limping count as two separate bets?

thanks,
Greg

[Bokonnon]

It's a binary statistic -- either you enter the hand or you don't. So completing the SB counts the same as capping every street. If you're in the BB and you check four times and you win the hand, it doesn't count. The key idea is "voluntary."

There are many on this forum who make a killing playing in the SSE style, but for me, playing a bit tighter than that seems to work better. It mainly depends on how many people are in the pot (and, obviously, how they play). In general, the suited connectors like loose-passive games, while the big unsuited cards prefer tighter games (where open-raising with them from middle position can be correct).

Again, I'm no expert. The best advice I can give you is to hang out here and read hand postings. Some of these cats are smart as hell.

[coinflip]

[ QUOTE ]
My VPIP is 26% and I try to strictly play the SSHe guidlines.

Ive tried to stop completing the small blind without a hand that actually looks promising. I used to play any two suited cards (as per SSHe) but now only play them if they are connected or have some high card strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's odd. I play the tight guidelines in SSH plus a few more hands (more suited aces and low PPs in EP) and I still only have a vpip of 17.5. Are you sure you're not getting creative? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SampleTOOSMALL]

***STAMP***

[bozlax]

Don't start worrying about PokerTracker statistics until you have at least 5,000 hands under your belt. They don't REALLY count until 10,000.

[bottomset]

are you playing at very good tables that let you play alot of suited connectors, Ks, etc from UTG+2-MP2 where you normally couldn't?

it could be variance, it could be you are playing too much, but you can have V$IP in the 19-22 range and still be very sucessful ..

[Greg J]

With all due respect to sample size man (or whatever his name is), 1k hands, while not a lot, should give you some idea of yr vpip. It's not like winrate, which takes tends of thousands of hands to get an idea.

Don't cold call bets preflop often -- raise or fold most of the time. There are some exceptions: 99 or A9s on the button with several others in the hand, but for the most part a raise should limit your options. Muck AJo, KQo to most raisers, unless the raiser is a maniac who raises any 2 -- in that case 3 bet.

Watch out for hands like KJo, and ATo. These hands look a lot better than they really are. Usually fold in ep.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My VPIP is 26% and I try to strictly play the SSHe guidlines.

Ive tried to stop completing the small blind without a hand that actually looks promising. I used to play any two suited cards (as per SSHe) but now only play them if they are connected or have some high card strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's odd. I play the tight guidelines in SSH plus a few more hands (more suited aces and low PPs in EP) and I still only have a vpip of 17.5. Are you sure you're not getting creative? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding is that the SShe style should yield a VPIP of 15-19% if following the tight guidelines exactly. That is why I think I am doing something wrong. I suspect that it is partly due to playing out of position from time to time.

Greg

[TALLBrad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My VPIP is 26% and I try to strictly play the SSHe guidlines.

Ive tried to stop completing the small blind without a hand that actually looks promising. I used to play any two suited cards (as per SSHe) but now only play them if they are connected or have some high card strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's odd. I play the tight guidelines in SSH plus a few more hands (more suited aces and low PPs in EP) and I still only have a vpip of 17.5. Are you sure you're not getting creative? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto....

[Bodhi]

[ QUOTE ]
My one weakness is sometimes playing two offsuit cards ten our better out of position. I will sometimes play them upfront when I know that they should be only played from mid to late position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. In early position, the weakest offsuit hands you should play are AJ and KQ. Fold AT, KJ, KT, QJ, QT and JT (all offsuit). In Middle position you can add AT and KJ. From late position you can add QJ and JT, but I routinely fold KT and QT anyway.

Continue to play loose from the SB.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My one weakness is sometimes playing two offsuit cards ten our better out of position. I will sometimes play them upfront when I know that they should be only played from mid to late position.

[/ QUOTE ]


Bingo. In early position, the weakest offsuit hands you should play are AJ and KQ. Fold AT, KJ, KT, QJ, QT and JT (all offsuit). In Middle position you can add AT and KJ. From late position you can add QJ and JT, but I routinely fold KT and QT anyway.

Continue to play loose from the SB.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think that this will help a lot. I was pretty much playing any two cards 10 or better from any position, if I felt that I wouldn't be raised.

Greg

[ArturiusX]

This sample size is embarrising.

I had a VPIP of 27% for my first 3000 hands, now its down to 20.5% after 8000.

Wait till 10000 then report back.

[bigmac366]

[ QUOTE ]
In early position, the weakest offsuit hands you should play are AJ and KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is too tight. from ep i limp with KJo and sometimes i limp and sometimes a raise ATo. i just ran a pt filter and am in the green with these hands from EP. i agree that KTo, QTo, and JTo should be mucked. i used to play QJo from EP, but i just noticed it was losing money for me, so now it will be a limp from MP1 and later. i also almost never play JTo, QTo, or KTo unless i'm in the blinds. i think these hands are marginal winners at best.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
This sample size is embarrising.

I had a VPIP of 27% for my first 3000 hands, now its down to 20.5% after 8000.

Wait till 10000 then report back.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then you tightened up. 1ooo hands is enough to get a reasonable idea of vpip.

[ArturiusX]

True, I did tighten up with offsuit hands and was more nazi about position.

But I still think the difference between getting a hand on the button and in utg can change your VPIP substancially. Hell, looking at my pokertracker stats I haven't been dealt a hell of a lot of hands in most positions.

[Cooker]

The texture of the table has a fairly large effect on my V$PIP. When I play at .25/.50 at UB I play tighter than the .5/1 at Party, but tighter than both of those at the Interpoker 1/2. I think it has a lot to do with the texture of the game. At Party, you can probably cold call an UTG raise from UTG+1 with any pocket pair and have enough callers behind you most of the time to make the play correct (not saying I do this, but just saying it is probably true), where this would hardly ever be a good idea at the tighter games at UB or Interpoker. This is where adjusting your starting requirements to the situation is key.

On Party I am about 25%, at UB about 23%, and at Interpoker about 19%. I don't think 25% is too far wrong (maybe a little on the loose side but not much).