Help Make a Rule (long but important)

[KJS]

I play in two weekly home games: one is a mixed limit/no limit HE tourney and the other is a NL cash game. Both games have run for over a year with the same field of about 12 people. Since we are good buddies and play tons of poker together, there is a healthy dose of "poker talk" that occurs during our games. People in the hand saying stuff like "Nice bluff" after a hand, "I'll fold my Ten", "big bet for a draw", etc.. are very common. However, lately there has been a spate of incidents where people not in the hand have said remarks that we all agree are improper. For instance, its heads-up and one player makes a big bet, then a 3rd party says "That is such a bluff". Obviously this is out of line because someone not in the hand can influence the outcome. We have all been guilty of this in one form or another and it has gone on for a while and has been mostly tolerated. Now we all want it to cease.

In order to keep our games friendly and competitive we want to formulate a good rule to limit outside influence in the outcome of a hand while preserving what can be considering "fair" verbal exchanges. We are working on the following assumptions:

1. People not in the hand should not comment on the hand
2. People should not comment on the hand they are in if others are yet to act. (ie, joe bets, and art folds, saying "I saw your tell, you must have it" before jim has decided whether to call).
3. In heads-up situations both participants can say anything.
4. There needs to be penalty for violating the rule

Since none of us have ever worked in a cardroom I decided to ask for some advice here. I am mostly curious if our assumptions above are correct. Secondly, what is a good penalty? I know that in tournament play "time-out" penalties are used and can be a good deterrent but what about cash games? Is making someone miss some hands enough of a penalty? Has anyone heard of monetary penalties being used?

Thanks in advance.

KJS

[Ginogino]

KJS:
I can't imagine trying to enforce some money penalty, at least in the games I've played in. If Art "gives away" Bob's attempt at a bluff, and Charlie calls and wins the hand, what happens to the pot? What happens to the penalty money? In our local game, we'd end up arguing until all hours (Bob thinks someone owes him a pot, Charlie says he showed down the best hand, and Art says the bluff was obvious and Charlie was going to call anyway).

Nevertheless, what we do is fairly effective. When someone gets out of line -- they make a comment interpreting the play of an active player -- the game halts for a few minutes, and the offending player is told that he's being unfair, and that he's out of line, and that he shouldn't do it any more. You know something, it works.

At the same time, when we play split pot games with a declare, if there's a lock winner one way, he is permitted as a matter of course to urge the competitors for the other half to raise one another, telling each of them that the other's bluffing "of course".

Seriously, try peer pressure. It's worked on me for decades.

[HDPM]

I think your assumptions and rules are perfect. If you adopt them I doubt you'll have a lot of problems anymore. As far as a penalty, I bet a $5 penalty would be a decent deterrent. You could throw the money in a jar and buy booze for the game with it. But if you adopt the rule and the penalty, you might be drinking Oly stubbies, not Bushmills because I don't think you'll fill the jar very quickly.

[bernie]

i think i saw a dre-ism in there...hahaa

i learned alot in cardrooms about reading hands from listening to better players read aloud. of course, they were in the hand when they did this. if theyre out of the hand, they wouldve been hushed, and ive seen that happen many times. its one thing to say what they folded, ie..even the mel 'cry of victory', which i find kinda humorous actually, but another to be involved in the hand and verbally try and ellicit information. i dont think a player not in the hand should mention how he reads another player really. he can mention that after the hand. once you fold i think you lost the priviledge to openly comment til the hand is over. it doesnt bother me either way, but lesser experienced players it can hinder/influence them i think. which could be a case for slight collusion. whether intended or not. btw...i dont think anyone in that group would intend this, but they may not realize the boundary in this way.

but if your in the hand, that's the field of battle, do what you can for information is power. i would throw out assumption 2.

im hoping to get up there and play again before you leave. ill try and get majorkong up there too....i need to be shellacked one more time... /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

b

[KJS]

I'll be there for only 2 more Sundays (my last will be 9/29). Hope you come by again. Be cool if majorkong would come too. And seeing your crazy brother would be fun too, I've been hearing about his online antics from Dre lately.

KJS

[bernie]

ill let him know...he's usually working sunday nights though. ill see what i can do...

b

[HDPM]

Dang, I'd be tempted to jump a Southwest flight for that game if it's your last. I'll be in Colorado though. (Nowhere near the two legal poker areas) They better have the internet in Thailand though. GL.