JJ - Play along with me. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

JoshuaD

03-06-2005, 04:34 AM

I don't have very strong reads here.

After 8 hands, UTG is a 75/37.5/5. After 20 hands, MP1 is a 50/0/1.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 5 folds, UTG caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero ???

Yeknom58

03-06-2005, 06:29 AM

Just don't fold. I say call the flop with the intention of raising the turn if MP sticks around. If mp folds on the flop then I'm inclined to just call down.

MoDOH

03-06-2005, 06:37 AM

I´d fold this one and I don´t think it´s even close...

einbert

03-06-2005, 07:40 AM

You only have 8 hands on UTG, which as you said is a really weak read. Have you seen him raise all the way with trash? It's entirely possible that he's a solid player who has just has a run of great cards and been very aggressive with them.

I would probably call down unless MP1 wakes up at any point, then I would fold. Folding the flop doesn't seem like an awful plan either.

Nick C

03-06-2005, 09:39 AM

Had you seen anything UTG had gone to showdown with? If so, that might help enhance your very short-term read, a little.

In any event, I think you should at least call, especially given the numbers you have on your opponents.

jason_t

03-06-2005, 09:43 AM

With those numbers on a Saturday night, raise the flop and then call down if the action gets heavy.

JoshuaD

03-06-2005, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Had you seen anything UTG had gone to showdown with? If so, that might help enhance your very short-term read, a little.

In any event, I think you should at least call, especially given the numbers you have on your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't remember a thing about UTG's play, just his numbers. 4-tabling sucks that way.

No one seems to agree, and I was in the same state this thread was, stuck somewhere between raising and calling and folding.

Anyone else?

pyroponic

03-06-2005, 01:37 PM

I'd fold it, reverse implied odds are just too much in this hand. I mean what can UTG possibly have that you beat, 88-TT??

You won't be able to protect your jackseven if you're ahead, I think you're WAY behind already (UTG probably either has AA or flopped a set of kings). Let's say he's a maniac and will cap with AK or QQ, you're still beat. He's loose but his PFR indicates that he raises quality hands for the most part. Not to mention two more possible overs to come.

I'd worry about MP2 as well, he's a loose fish but he DID call 3-bets cold...may have AK or KQ, maybe even KJ.

Knoler

03-06-2005, 01:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say he's a maniac and will cap with AK or QQ, you're still beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think our standards for maniacal are a little out of whack. Capping with QQ is good. Capping with AK is good if I'm in position or if the pot is multiway (gives me an overlay). Capping with AKs is super easy.

As for the hand, I think you're likely going to lose this hand far more than you win it. If we assign your opponent very aggressive (but not insane -- like capping with JTs) raising standards, you're behind to just about everything except TT and AQ. And then if you're not behind to him, MP is still to act behind you. You've got 2 outs -- I think this is a good laydown.

Regards,
-Brian

CallMeIshmael

03-06-2005, 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say he's a maniac and will cap with AK or QQ,

[/ QUOTE ]

Come again?

A maniac could have A6o here.

Also, having seen a showdown from UTG would be a HUGE help (already stated). I think it is VERY close between all three options here. I tend to lean towards a fold, but I don't think a raise is bad. Calling, without the intention of raising the turn, is not a play I like.

pyroponic

03-06-2005, 02:01 PM

Not automatic caps for me for either hand. I'm more inclined to cap QQ in position and AKs with multiple players in the pot, I don't know about capping AKs out of position 3-way, I guess it depends on how i'm feelng.

If I am capping AKs it's doing it mainly to represent kings or aces, not as much so for value. Against reasonable players, I think QQ and AK are not looking so good when it's been 3-bet, I venture to say a lot of players don't 3-bet TT so a lot of the times you're way behind KK/AA when it's been reraised PF.

I don't see many caps other than AA/KK, occasionally AK. Usually when it's 3-bet it's KK/AA, strong players are more likely to reraise with a hand like TT than fish.

When I said maniac I mean a solid player who plays very agressively PF. I don't play $2/4 though so I'm not sure how often it's capped with garbage like ATo.

Elizabeth

03-06-2005, 02:27 PM

It seems obvious UTG will lead at the flop 100% of the time. That makes this question about what % of the time he has a king. I'm more curious if UTG will cap this preflop just for spite.

With MP in the pot I think you have to raise to put him to the test. You have the chance to get headsup with what might be a maniac with a lot of dead money in the pot. That has to be a good line, right? Plus, if MP plays for 2 cold then you will be able to fold this one and you'll save bets over calling it down.

JoshuaD

03-06-2005, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It seems obvious UTG will lead at the flop 100% of the time. That makes this question about what % of the time he has a king. I'm more curious if UTG will cap this preflop just for spite.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly the question. I'd cap from his position with AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AKo. I might also cap with JJ, TT, and AQs depending on reads.

If we assume that's his range of hands, there are only 2 unlikely hands that I'm ahead of right now. Does that make it worthwhile to raise?

It's worth noting I may also be able to fold a weak-tight QQ if I raise (he calls, and check/folds the turn).

I'm not giving very much credit to him for being a maniac this hand. He's seen 8 hands, he's played 6 of them to the flop, and he raised 3 of them. That could too easily be a TAG who had a good orbit. (I actually have no idea what he really was, I ended up leaving this table soon after this hand).

hate

03-06-2005, 02:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold it, reverse implied odds are just too much in this hand. I mean what can UTG possibly have that you beat, 88-TT??

You won't be able to protect your jackseven if you're ahead, I think you're WAY behind already (UTG probably either has AA or flopped a set of kings). Let's say he's a maniac and will cap with AK or QQ, you're still beat. He's loose but his PFR indicates that he raises quality hands for the most part. Not to mention two more possible overs to come.

I'd worry about MP2 as well, he's a loose fish but he DID call 3-bets cold...may have AK or KQ, maybe even KJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Reverse implied odds against what, KKK? Hold the phones while I go grab the weak-tight police, because they just found a parole violator.

pyroponic

03-06-2005, 03:02 PM

Ok I suppose 16/9/2.8 is weak-tight, but meet me in my games where people will cap with quality hands. I hope you're raising JJ when I lead into on a board like that after I raised and capped from UTG.

Reverse implied odds meaning I think you're behind in this situation more than you're ahead, I think you're just throwing away bets to test this guy. You're behind so many hands here it's not even funny.ing

Note: i'm refering to holding JJ in this spot given this action given this board. QQ i'd say you're about even.

hate

03-06-2005, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I suppose 16/9/2.8 is weak-tight, but meet me in my games where people will cap with quality hands. I hope you're raising JJ when I lead into on a board like that after I raised and capped from UTG.

Reverse implied odds meaning I think you're behind in this situation more than you're ahead, I think you're just throwing away bets to test this guy. You're behind so many hands here it's not even funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reverse implied odds means that you're on a draw that will be a likely second best hand if it improves, or if you've currently got the best hand, by the time the turn and river come out you're much more likely to be behind. From preflop play, he can perhaps fold a weak QQ, he's behind AA, KK, and AK and the flop is an autobet for most players. I'm muddled up with this hand too, but reverse implied odds aren't a factor.

mr pink

03-06-2005, 03:14 PM

i would raise here. the pots too big to just fold so if you're going to play, you should at least try and win it. a raise here has a couple possibilities:

- mp2 will fold, and utg will call... i'm folding UI if he leads the turn. if checked to me, i'm betting the turn and folding to a checkraise.

- mp2 will fold, and utg will 3-bet... i'm calling the 3-bet getting 18.5 to 1 to spike a jack and folding the turn UI.

- mp2 calls and utg calls, i'm thinking check/fold turn UI.

- mp2 calls and utg 3-bets, peel one off and try and spike a jack getting 21.5 to 1, folding turn UI.

- mp2 3-bets, utg calls, call getting 21.5 to 1 or so and fold turn UI.

- mp2 3-bets, utg caps, i'm leaning towards a fold right here.

most of these included folding the turn w/out help. seems like hero would be putting in between 1 to 1.5 BBs a lot of the time and just folding on the turn UI, so maybe just call the flop and see what goes on from there?

don't know how much i like raising anymore.

rmarotti

03-06-2005, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Note: i'm refering to holding JJ in this spot given this action given this board. QQ i'd say you're about even.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that makes any sense.

Knoler

03-06-2005, 03:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Reverse implied odds means that you're on a draw that will be a likely second best hand if it improves, or if you've currently got the best hand, by the time the turn and river come out you're much more likely to be behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dingdingdingdingding....Gutter, tell him what he's won!

I don't see this as much of a reverse implied odds situation at all. For a classic reverse implied odds example, imagine you have AK and someone else has A2. Flop comes 2 X X, no ace. You're now feeling the burn of reverse implied odds if you draw.

...and my point wasn't so much to generate debate regarding when and where to cap with QQ, JJ or AK, but more to say that it's silly to think that only "maniacs" will cap with those hands.

Regards,
-Brian

Elizabeth

03-06-2005, 03:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems obvious UTG will lead at the flop 100% of the time. That makes this question about what % of the time he has a king. I'm more curious if UTG will cap this preflop just for spite.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly the question. I'd cap from his position with AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AKo. I might also cap with JJ, TT, and AQs depending on reads.

[/ QUOTE ]

He probably will cap with more than that. Even though you've only seen 8 hands, he's played 6/8. How often do you play 3/4s of the hands in an orbit? How often do you also 4 bet on that same orbit? He's more likely loose than not.

I suspect this preflop cap means "My initial raise was real". It doesn't necessarily mean a premium hand. I take it to mean that UTG has what a tight player's initial raising standards are.

You're still probably behind, though, and unfortunately you have to raise the flop because you can't let MP in for 1 small bet closing the action. Calling it down is 6 small bets, and the pot's got 12 sb in it. You get roughly 3:1.

Does 1/4 of a normal preflop UTG's hands contain a K or beat jacks? Add in the fact that MP might be beating you, and I <shudder> am starting to think a fold is in order.

But I might just be talking myself into it.

JoshuaD

03-06-2005, 04:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Add in the fact that MP might be beating you, and I <shudder> am starting to think a fold is in order.

But I might just be talking myself into it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't know how badly I wanted to fold. I just sat there for 20 seconds hovering over the fold button, then I convinced myself to raise. I figured getting MP1 out is good, and if UTG doesn't 3-bet me, I might be in good shape. 2SB to get a chance at 14, I don't need to be sucessful too often. If things don't turn out well (MP1 calls or raises), I can be done w/ the hand at the cost of 2-3SB's.

Here's the following action and the next big decision, I'm still welcoming criticism on this raise:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 5 folds, UTG caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, MP2 folds, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero ????

Call down or fold?

mr pink

03-06-2005, 04:24 PM

you were raising the flop to test him to see how much he likes his hand right? calling down now doesn't make much sense imo.

JoshuaD

03-06-2005, 04:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you were raising the flop to test him to see how much he likes his hand right?

[/ QUOTE ]

And to push MP1 out.

My plan was to bet the turn if he called the PF raise and checked the turn. I would fold to a turn C/R.

mr pink

03-06-2005, 04:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My plan was to bet the turn if he called the PF raise and checked the turn. I would fold to a turn C/R.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd have done the same... see my OP at the bottom.

CallMeIshmael

03-06-2005, 04:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Reverse implied odds means that you're on a draw that will be a likely second best hand if it improves

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, no. Reverse implied odds occur not when you are on a draw, but when you have a weak made hand that has little chance of improving and you are not sure as to whether or not your hand is good at the moment, and even if it is, your opponent can improve very easily.

I do agree that in a situation like you describe (for something like Tc9c on a board of KcKs5c) where you may have to pay off when you hit does seem to suffer RIO, but I've seen others say they don't apply in this type of situation. I believe the difference is that you don't have to pay off all the way UNLESS you hit.

Elizabeth

03-06-2005, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you were raising the flop to test him to see how much he likes his hand right? calling down now doesn't make much sense imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if you expect to get 3 bet, you have to raise if you want to play this hand because of MP. If you just call then you reduce your chances of winning too much. If you are ahead, then you can't let MP1 play for 1 bet when he might have a Q, an A, or a lower pair.

This makes it too expensive, and you can't raise, then maybe folding is right.

hate

03-06-2005, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Reverse implied odds means that you're on a draw that will be a likely second best hand if it improves

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, no. Reverse implied odds occur not when you are on a draw, but when you have a weak made hand that has little chance of improving and you are not sure as to whether or not your hand is good at the moment, and even if it is, your opponent can improve very easily.

I do agree that in a situation like you describe (for something like Tc9c on a board of KcKs5c) where you may have to pay off when you hit does seem to suffer RIO, but I've seen others say they don't apply in this type of situation. I believe the difference is that you don't have to pay off all the way UNLESS you hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll tend to disagree here because of a board like QJT when I've got a 9x. I'll be drawing to an OESD, but drawing to a K is definitely not a good thing. There might be some disagreement about that, but I think conceptually they aren't at all different, and just like I'm not paying off the river if my draw doesn't hit, I'm very likely not going to pay off with a board that's 247KQ if I've got 66.

Elizabeth

03-06-2005, 04:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]

You don't know how badly I wanted to fold. I just sat there for 20 seconds hovering over the fold button, then I convinced myself to raise. I figured getting MP1 out is good, and if UTG doesn't 3-bet me, I might be in good shape. 2SB to get a chance at 14, I don't need to be sucessful too often. If things don't turn out well (MP1 calls or raises), I can be done w/ the hand at the cost of 2-3SB's.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm right with you, it seems like there should be some value that you can get at with the flop raise. Awfully expensive, though.

Maybe it's such a tough laydown because your instinct is telling you that UTG is overplaying his hand?

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (9.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero ????

[/ QUOTE ]

What an awful card. The only bright side is that MP folded. Or maybe that's a dark side because now you have a decision. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I call this down. In 9 hands this guy has raised 4 and played 7?! You cannot go to war with loose aggressive players only to fold when scare cards hit.

I think there's too much chance that you're up against any pocket pair, any piece of the flop, who knows. I don't trust someone who bets this much.

It's 6:1 to call it down, so you need to be good 14%. You still may have 5% winning chances for when you hit a set. Are UTG full of it 10% of the time? Given his action this orbit, it could be. It's a little expensive but I can't let it go once I made my flop play. I know it's wrong to think that way, but once you make a read you have to stick to it or else you will defeat yourself and you won't learn anything

slydeni

03-06-2005, 05:12 PM

assuming of course no reads...and no established table image of your own.

You have to raise here. the pot is big. You may be behind. You may be ahead. You may be able to put him off a hand. You probably will eliminate the other guy. You WILL gather info. about how to proceed. You can see by all of the disagreement in this thread that there is a lot of ambivalence about how to proceed. That's because we do not know enough yet! If the pot is big (and it is) we owe it to ourselves to find out how our investment is going. It may cost us another bet or so. But- if we fold or play passively and are wrong we lose a lot more.

So... you raise here. The third guy probably folds (if he calls or raises we have another whole thread we could start). So, assuming he folds - the utg guy will either raise or call. if he raises...well we can be more confident in our thinking that he probably has us beat. if he calls... 2 things can happen. he may have a whopper and want to gouge you on the turn with a check rz. Or he may be scared and will check the turn. I think he will check the turn either way if he does not cap. And I think you should check here too, and call the river if he bets. Dont walk into the check rz. and dont give him a turn bet in case he does have the king.

id like to write more- great hand. gotta go-

good luck
sly

JoshuaD

03-06-2005, 05:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So... you raise here. The third guy probably folds (if he calls or raises we have another whole thread we could start). So, assuming he folds - the utg guy will either raise or call. if he raises...well we can be more confident in our thinking that he probably has us beat. if he calls... 2 things can happen. he may have a whopper and want to gouge you on the turn with a check rz. Or he may be scared and will check the turn. I think he will check the turn either way if he does not cap. And I think you should check here too, and call the river if he bets. Dont walk into the check rz. and dont give him a turn bet in case he does have the king.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note: This is all discussion looking at it from the flop decision. At this point, I don't know an A fell on the turn.

Assuming he had just called my flop raise, you're gonna give up on putting the guy off QQ w/ a turn bet (Or calling with a worse hand like TT or AQ)?

You can safely fold to a turn C/R (IMO), so why not bet it and pick up some fold equity?

mr pink

03-06-2005, 05:30 PM

yeah i guess after making the flop play, calling down is probably the way to go once it's heads up.

mr pink

03-06-2005, 05:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You can safely fold to a turn C/R (IMO), so why not bet it and pick up some fold equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah.

i think the turn bet is the only chance you're gonna have to move him off QQ or whatever, and you don't wanna give a free card.

JoshuaD

03-06-2005, 05:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i guess after making the flop play, calling down is probably the way to go once it's heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even with the A on the turn? What hands am I ahead of that 3-bet this flop and bet into that A?

pyroponic

03-07-2005, 09:11 AM

Classic TAG mistake...playing hands too aggressively when you're behind. I know the feeling how you were hovering over the fold button, i've been in this situation before and rarely i'm ahead.

Like i'm said, you're probably already beat, but with more over cards to come on the turn and river, it's best just to get away from this hand on the flop and choose a better spot. You've already spent 2 BB before the flop, why throw away another 3+ BB by testing this guy and then calling him down? This isn't like folding to a river bet in a big pot, this is about having spend more money to show your hand down than you invested to begin with.

Referring to the reverse implied odds, I didn't know this was a biology class but it's more of a concept than a set in stone definition. I believe anytime you're on a draw with the proper odds but still lose if you make it OR you have a weak made hand (e.g. 88 on a board of JT2) that is probably behind and could still lose with more cards to come even if you're ahead and you will have to expend multiple bets in order to showdown this is basically reverse implied odds.

Do you have the results of your hand by the way?

JoshuaD

03-07-2005, 10:27 AM

I'm surprised so many of you advocated calling down. I agree with Mr. Pink's analysis:

[ QUOTE ]
you were raising the flop to test him to see how much he likes his hand right? calling down now doesn't make much sense imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why spend 2BB here when I don't need to? After the flop action, I can be sure that I'm behind a HUGE majority of the time here, if the guy has TT, well he robbed my pot. I hope he continues to play TT that aggressively.

Here's the entire hand, I never found out what he had.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 5 folds, UTG caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, MP2 folds, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

jt1

03-07-2005, 10:39 AM

MP1 makes this hand difficult. I don't have any rules about dealing with a suspected maniac while having 'marginal' hands in a multi-way pot. Sometimes I raise to push him, sometimes I just call down. The question is, of course, do you earn more by forcing other player out even though you are opening yourself up to an extra big bet spent with the worst hand?

pyroponic

03-07-2005, 12:49 PM

A lot of people suggest calling down because their hand/board reading skills are poor.

Edit:

I didn't exactly take the guy's stats into consideration, but after just 8 hands I don't think that is enough of a sample to make a solid read, i'd rather not try to play a guessing game given the board and preflop action. MP1 being in the hand tops it off.

jt1

03-07-2005, 12:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i guess after making the flop play, calling down is probably the way to go once it's heads up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even with the A on the turn? What hands am I ahead of that 3-bet this flop and bet into that A?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you peg a guy as a maniac, there's nothing much you can do without a real hand. You call down, no matter what the board looks like.

Now, as i said before, what to do when another player is in there with you, and he's not raising? I don't know.

ErrantNight

03-07-2005, 12:58 PM

anyone advocating calling down after the turn needs their head examined. and with someone behind you on the flop a fold woulda been just fine. calling woulda been bad. raising was aiight (since you were unsure as to whether it was a maniac, a tag, or someone in between), assuming that you believe them capable of laying down QQ. otherwise the range of capping hands, short of a maniac, is too few to consider raising.

ErrantNight

03-07-2005, 01:01 PM

mp1 makes this a probably fold. with a Q on board, and not a K, i think a raise becomes a much stronger play, as villain is much more likely to have AK than AA or KK and it is therefore more likely that he missed the flop and is auto-betting and you have the best hand.

here, you probably have the second best hand, maybe the worst of the three, and are opening yourself up to a 3-bet that you have to call.

i think if an ace had fallen on this flop everyone woulda been auto-folding. here, i think a king should elicit some of the same opinion.

ErrantNight

03-07-2005, 01:01 PM

no one has been pegged as a maniac.

ErrantNight

03-07-2005, 01:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I call this down. In 9 hands this guy has raised 4 and played 7?! You cannot go to war with loose aggressive players only to fold when scare cards hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

even LAGs get cards.

what possible hands are you ahead of at this point that someone is capping with preflop?

and have you never had a string of 9 hands where you raised 4 and played 7? really?

investing any more money after the turn is unforgiveably terrible, and if you honestly believe that it's +ev you've got a gaping chasm of a leak in your game.

Nick C

03-07-2005, 02:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
have you never had a string of 9 hands where you raised 4 and played 7? really?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's possible I have, but it certainly doesn't happen very often.

I think Villain's numbers, while inconclusive, do provide evidence that he's a LAG.

ErrantNight

03-07-2005, 02:37 PM

ok... but what are you going to do with that read?

ErrantNight

03-07-2005, 02:38 PM

we don't know he's a maniac. and anyone short of a maniac (and probably not even maniac) is NOT capping A6o preflop. you should not even be considering such trash.

Nick C

03-07-2005, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ok... but what are you going to do with that read?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd probably fold to the turn bet, actually, because of the board and the preflop cap and the flop 3-bet. But I would wonder if I'd just thrown away the best hand.

If I'd been watching Villain play and wasn't relying just on numbers acquired over eight hands, it's possible I'd call down instead.

pyroponic

03-07-2005, 04:29 PM

If you're going to fold to the turn bet why even call the flop reraise if you're going to test this guy?

mr pink

03-07-2005, 04:33 PM

cause you're getting like 18 or 19 to 1 to spike a jack

pyroponic

03-07-2005, 04:37 PM

Ok my fault, didn't count the pot after all the action was closed on the flop.

JoshuaD

03-07-2005, 04:52 PM

Hey guys, thanks for the responses. I've been thinking about this hand more and more, and I realized a mistake I made.

Let me post the hand history again, this time with a little embellishment.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 5 folds, UTG caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero pauses for ~20 seconds, Hero raises, MP2 folds, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

I really think that long pause was a mistake. I should have picked either fold or raise and done it, and puzzled about the hand later. A TAG or LAG might try to take advantage of that pause and pop a 3-bet, thinking it possibly implied weakness.

Elizabeth

03-08-2005, 12:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Why spend 2BB here when I don't need to? After the flop action, I can be sure that I'm behind a HUGE majority of the time here, if the guy has TT, well he robbed my pot. I hope he continues to play TT that aggressively.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're right now. I was in a similar situation against a loose aggressive player a couple days ago. When a bunch of overcards had fallen, and these are overcards that a laggy player would try to bluff with, I just couldn't bring myself to call several more bets, knowing that even the "bluffs" of my opponent probably beat me.

Waiting for a better situation to test the player makes more sense, even given the fact that he's overplaying his hand.