Some basic post flop play at 100+9

[Apathy]

Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Saturday, March 05, 20:39:21 EDT 2005
Table Table 14238 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: blaydzfsteel ( $835 )
Seat 2: jms24 ( $1455 )
Seat 4: Germes7 ( $245 )
Seat 5: hachedo ( $1535 )
Seat 6: TinyProP ( $925 )
Seat 7: Gunit86sb ( $1195 )
Seat 8: rh1823 ( $1325 )
Seat 9: SaloonSally ( $1440 )
Seat 10: dragonboiz ( $1045 )
Trny:10131509 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to blaydzfsteel [ Qc Qd ]
hachedo folds.
TinyProP folds.
Gunit86sb raises [100].
rh1823 folds.
SaloonSally folds.
dragonboiz folds.
blaydzfsteel raises [275].
jms24 folds.
Germes7 folds.
Gunit86sb has been reconnected and has 20 seconds to act.
Gunit86sb calls [175].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jd, Kh, 2c ]
Gunit86sb checks.
blaydzfsteel checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4s ]
Gunit86sb checks.
blaydzfsteel bets [200].
Gunit86sb calls [200].
** Dealing River ** [ 5s ]
Gunit86sb checks.
blaydzfsteel checks.


I'm most interested in the river check behind here.

[raptor517]

Gunit86sb is terrible imo. im not really quite sure what he could have in this spot though, the entire hand confuses me. i guess you have to put him on something like 1010 or AJ. AQ is possible i suppose too. only real possiblilities i can see.

hmm. i dont mind a check behind, however, you very likely have the best hand and could get value out of it on the river if you decide to fire. i am quite interested in what he showed down though. holla

[elonkra]

I'm guessing the queens held up.

I'm not sure what your question is, and I'm a smalltiming idiot, but I've decided I'm gonna start chiming in with what I think anyway, so...

I think the preflop raise to 275 was too small (I'd have raised to 350 or 400 and then hit the flop with what I had left if he called unless an ace and a king fell, in which case I'd probably end up folding), but given your situation, I'd have made a stab at the flop when he checked it to me. I'd bet $300 or maybe even all-in.

[raptor517]

i dont mind the 275 reraise, thats actually the amount i would probably use. 350 or 400 i think is way too much in this situation. if an ace or king came and u had made it 400 to go you still should push anyway. you cant automatically put him on AK

[Apathy]

I think I picked kind of a bad hand to discuss what I was thinking on the river but If I thought there was a 30% chance he had KQ or something that I was behind to what do you think of the check behind? Clearly an extra 300 chips to me stack if I'm right is not worth nearly as much as the same 300 chips If they are all I have left.

And I did notice that this guy was pretty bad which made it a little tough to figure out what he had at the time with the strange line he took.

[lastchance]

With your stack, and his terrible play, I'd just push the flop and be done with it after the preflop raise.

[elonkra]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont mind the 275 reraise, thats actually the amount i would probably use. 350 or 400 i think is way too much in this situation. if an ace or king came and u had made it 400 to go you still should push anyway. you cant automatically put him on AK

[/ QUOTE ]

I was saying I'd be more hesitant to push if an ace and king fell, but you might be right about pushing anyway. And I don't mean to hijack the thread, but how can you not wanna get more chips in preflop with QQ? You've got a min-raiser and you're not even gonna make him put twice the normal sized bet in to see the flop when you have QQ, knowing he might have Ax or Kx or a smaller pp? Are you hesitant to bet more because you want more than the $100 he's put into the pot or because you fear he might have you beaten already or catch an ace or king on the flop? Maybe I'm not as respectful of low limit opponents as y'all are of high limit opponents, but I'm willing and wanting to get as much as possible in preflop with QQ.

Again, sorry for taking this offtopic, I know this was about postflop play.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dont mind the 275 reraise, thats actually the amount i would probably use. 350 or 400 i think is way too much in this situation. if an ace or king came and u had made it 400 to go you still should push anyway. you cant automatically put him on AK

[/ QUOTE ]

I was saying I'd be more hesitant to push if an ace and king fell, but you might be right about pushing anyway. And I don't mean to hijack the thread, but how can you not wanna get more chips in preflop with QQ? You've got a min-raiser and you're not even gonna make him put twice the normal sized bet in to see the flop when you have QQ, knowing he might have Ax or Kx or a smaller pp? Are you hesitant to bet more because you want more than the $100 he's put into the pot or because you fear he might have you beaten already or catch an ace or king on the flop? Maybe I'm not as respectful of low limit opponents as y'all are of high limit opponents, but I'm willing and wanting to get as much as possible in preflop with QQ.

Again, sorry for taking this offtopic, I know this was about postflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising much more then I did preflop is a mistake because you limit the amount of hands your opponent will call you with too much, you can't be terrified of playing post flop in sngs.

Also when you raise more then necassary you also really limit you options post flop by commiting yourself unnecessarily pre-flop.

I also think that pushing on the flop, as another poster suggested, is probably the worst thing you could do with this hand as you are never called when you are ahead and if you are ahead it is unlikely your opponent has many outs.

[raptor517]

pretty much the exact words i would have used for a reply, good post apathy.

[elonkra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dont mind the 275 reraise, thats actually the amount i would probably use. 350 or 400 i think is way too much in this situation. if an ace or king came and u had made it 400 to go you still should push anyway. you cant automatically put him on AK

[/ QUOTE ]

I was saying I'd be more hesitant to push if an ace and king fell, but you might be right about pushing anyway. And I don't mean to hijack the thread, but how can you not wanna get more chips in preflop with QQ? You've got a min-raiser and you're not even gonna make him put twice the normal sized bet in to see the flop when you have QQ, knowing he might have Ax or Kx or a smaller pp? Are you hesitant to bet more because you want more than the $100 he's put into the pot or because you fear he might have you beaten already or catch an ace or king on the flop? Maybe I'm not as respectful of low limit opponents as y'all are of high limit opponents, but I'm willing and wanting to get as much as possible in preflop with QQ.

Again, sorry for taking this offtopic, I know this was about postflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising much more then I did preflop is a mistake because you limit the amount of hands your opponent will call you with too much, you can't be terrified of playing post flop in sngs.

Also when you raise more then necassary you also really limit you options post flop by commiting yourself unnecessarily pre-flop.

I also think that pushing on the flop, as another poster suggested, is probably the worst thing you could do with this hand as you are never called when you are ahead and if you are ahead it is unlikely your opponent has many outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point with regard to the "don't push the flop" logic, but I'm still not sure I can buy the argument against only raising to 275 with QQ when you have a min-raiser(to t100). I suppose that's why you're the $100 sng player and I'm the $3/$5 sng player.

[raptor517]

the reason for not making it more is that you are not going to get called or reraised unless you are beaten at the higher levels. 275 is a very good amount. once you have some practice and start moving up the players get a bit better and wont push in that spot with much worse hands.

[microbet]

70% you have him beat.
30% he has KQ or the like.

Have to make some assumptions. I'll guess when he is losing he will fold 60% of the time to a river bet of 300. Him check-raising doesn't really matter, you only have 60 chips left after betting 300 on the river.

You check
.7 x .137 + .3 x .0393 = .108

You bet 300
.7 x .163 + .3 x .0068 = .116

So make that value bet on the end with that read.

What would your read have to be to make betting or checking equivalent?

.137a + .0393(1 - a) = .163a + .0068(1 - a)

a = .55

So, by ICM (if I didn't screw it up), if you think there is a 55% chance you are winning or better you should bet on the end.

In a $109 I might assume I'm only a little better than average and bump that up to about 60% sure in order to bet, but maybe in an $11 and probably in a $6 I would go up to about the 70% sure because I think my equity with 360 chips is significantly above what ICM says.

That's just my answer to what I think your question was.

I think with one overcard, especially the K, and a check, I would have bet the flop. When you checked the flop had decided that you would fold if he bet the turn (barring another queen)?

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
once you have some practice and start moving up the players get a bit better and wont push in that spot with much worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point as to why it is level or read dependent. If you are at a crazy enough table you can push with queens and get called by pocket fives.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still not sure I can buy the argument against only raising to 275 with QQ when you have a min-raiser(to t100).

[/ QUOTE ]

The part about what people will call you with is game dependent. The principle is you want to bet enough so that people who call with worse hands will be making a mistake, but not so much that worse hands will all fold and only better hands will call.

The part about limiting your options is because if you bet too much relative to your or your opponants stack you won't be able to get away from the hand no matter what happens after the flop.

[elonkra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm still not sure I can buy the argument against only raising to 275 with QQ when you have a min-raiser(to t100).

[/ QUOTE ]

The part about what people will call you with is game dependent. The principle is you want to bet enough so that people who call with worse hands will be making a mistake, but not so much that worse hands will all fold and only better hands will call.

The part about limiting your options is because if you bet too much relative to your or your opponants stack you won't be able to get away from the hand no matter what happens after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for all of the input on the side/rookie issue guys. Maybe I'm more apt to bet big because, at the buy-in ($3) and pond (americascardroom.com) that I play at, AJ-AK and any pp are calling hands, in spite of big preflop reraises. Perfect example from a game I just played in...

6man tourney, 5 players left.

I'm on big blind (t20) w/QQ, level 1. All four players limp to me. I would normally raise to t60, but I make it t120 and get one caller. Flop comes rag rag jack, I bet nearly the pot and take it down.

On the very next hand, I'm on the small blind and get QQ again (gotta love it). Again, everyone limps to me, and I bump to t120 again (hoping I'm perceived as a bully). Again, I get a caller. Flop comes Ace rag rag and I put the caller all-in for his last $300, knowing good and damn well he probably had an ace (my postflop skills are pretty weak, if you haven't noticed). He calls me down and turns over A7off. The crap people call with on this site is amazing, although I certainly played example two about as badly as humanly possible. Preflop calls like that are the reason I'm apt to reraise big w/QQ when I have a raiser into me. And lest you think the call was simply a byproduct of whatever bully image I might have created with back to back preflop raises to t120, let me assure you, it happens no matter how good your table image is. That's the $3 game I guess.

[raptor517]

109s are a lot different than 3s, i suppose making a huge raise is probably not a bad idea in a 3, because you will probably get called by crap hands quite often. in a 109 you have to find that correct balance, and in apathy's situation 275 was correct.