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View Full Version : AKs, Top pair on turn against Flop Raiser

MisterNatural
03-05-2005, 09:26 PM
2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

My read on MP2 is that he's not a bluffer and not involved in a lot of pots. I've seen him open limp on button with KTo and reraise heads up with top pair. I assume he's got atleast top pair on the flop when he raises.

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero ?

Here I think "He might've limped AQ but I don't think he's that weak to do that from middle position judging by some earlier preflop raises"
brettbrettr
03-05-2005, 09:29 PM
call him down.
gaming_mouse
03-05-2005, 09:33 PM
Good post. Relevant to my current theme of interest -- making good laydowns. This is tough, since I'm pretty sure you're beat, but I don't like laying this down either. If you don't think he'd limp AQ -- and I'm not sure he wouldn't, based on your description -- then you may well be up against 99 or 33.

Having said that, I am calling this down. It may be a leak, but I'd have to do it.
bungyrocks
03-05-2005, 09:38 PM
Easy call down. He may think you would check raise if you had an ace, and are trying to represent it.
MisterNatural
03-05-2005, 10:21 PM
Against an LAP or just a poor player or a short buy in, I agree with the call down. If he's a rock I can usually fold here. The problem is that I hadn't had enough hands with this guy to know where I stood.

This is such a common situation since I usually 4 table at 2/4 full. I'm wondering which has more +EV over time: 1)giving an unknown credit for the strong hand and then making a note or 2)calling him down and making the note.

If I call down, I get the info, but more often than not, I'm paying for it and who know's if I'll ever see the player again.

If I fold, I have to remember to watch him play a little more to see if he makes a lot of moves. Often this is difficult when you've got 35 other players to worry about, and again, you may never see this guy again.

So.....we've got 3 votes to call this guy down, and I did it as well. Anyone have a different opinion?
gaming_mouse
03-05-2005, 11:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]

This is such a common situation since I usually 4 table at 2/4 full. I'm wondering which has more +EV over time: 1)giving an unknown credit for the strong hand and then making a note or 2)calling him down and making the note.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really the heart of the matter.

You are getting 6:1 to call him down. So the question is, are you ahead here more than 1 time in 7 against a relative unknown. I really don't know the answer to that, but I'd have to say it's close, as turn raise bluffs and semi-bluffs are not that uncommon at 3/6, and I'd assume the same for 2/4. OTOH, the more I look over this specific hand history, the more I'm convinced you are beat. In any case, though, calling down can't be that bad of a mistake.

I'd like to hear other opinions.
MattC
03-06-2005, 01:29 AM
is it possible he has two pair with q9s or q-something of clubs? if your up against two pair you still have 6 outs to make the best hand and your ahead of a middle pair flush draw.

i too am struggling with players that either play like this or
do something like call the flop then raise the turn even tho it is a blank, confuses the hell out of me. Basically, since i dont really understand what causes a player to do such a thing i just call down. The results i have had so far are sometimes they are doing it with a weaker kicker top pair and sometimes they turn two pair or have a set. its especially weird when they limp something like ak then do this. so hard to tell where they are. if you get anymore help relay it to me cuz im stuck in the same boat /images/graemlins/frown.gif.