pocket pairs with overpair on the board--what to do

[mike1270]

hi
i have been learning to play with the help of small stakes holdem(SSH) by miller/sklansky/malmuth. i was playing the other day i limped w 22 and floped QQ7. i couldn't find any disscusion of this in the SSH book.
i went to the library and found two books with conflicting advice on this situation. on page 84 of winning low limit hold'em by Lee it says "if the board is paired over your pocket pair you can fold at the first oppurtunity". on page 91 in play poker like the pros by hellmuth it says that you have an excellent chance of having best had and you should put in some bets and raises to get info and protect your hand.

who is right and why???? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

thanks
mike

[peachy]

i fold 22 preflop most of the time...and on that flop thats an easy lay down for me...but if i was against someone that was a total maniac i MIGHT see this further...but highly doubtful....but then agian thats just me

[slickpoppa]

it depends. how many people were in the hand, what is your position, etc.

[MarkL444]

what to do in any given situation depends on more than the cards. something to think about here. how many cards can come on the turn that you will like to see?

[axioma]

"if the board is paired over your pocket pair you can fold at the first oppurtunity"

this quote has already been torn apart here, so i wont go into it again here. surfice it to say, its horrible advice.

[mike1270]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While a lot of the concepts in SSH are applicable to SSNL, both WLLH and SSH refer to limit games and this is the SSNL board. Are you playing NL or limit?

Also, you can pretty much ignore everything Hellmuth says.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



why please?

thanks. i was playing nl and there were 5 limpers preflop and it was checked to me in middle position. someone bet behind me and i think there were two callers so i folded. i figured i was dead if anyone held a Q,7, or any other board card higher if someone paired it. i was thinking i most likley had only two outs(2,2) if nobody had a Q.

but i am more interested in learning how to play other pockect pairs vs two overpairs on the board as i found either no help of conflicting advice in the books i looked at.

so i am hoping for a good disscussion of the different situations and what to do.
1 kk flop AA7
2 TT flop AA7
3 77 flop TT5
4 77 flop TT8
5 55 flop QQ4
you get the idea. it would be great if someone could get into some detail about their thinking on situations like this.

does anyone know of any good books that discuss this in some detail ????

i think i goofed by posting this in two different places. i am new to this so i am sorry if this was a nono
for those that are interested i posted it to "small stakes" amd "texas holdem general"

thanks
mike

[emonrad87]

You can ignore everything hellmouth's book says because it is 99% horrible advice.

[axioma]

link to an older post on this subject (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=genpok&Number=1658640&Foru m=All_Forums&Words=poll&Searchpage=0&Limit=50&Main =1649557&Search=true&where=sub&Name=17166&daterang e=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bo dyprev=#Post1658640)


note: 43% of the people that voted on that poll were incorrect. scary isnt it?

[mike1270]

thanks for the link to the old quiz. i had to think this through but basicaly your only hope is that nobady has a 9(which cripples you with either) and that is less likely w two 9's already on the board. but how would you play these two hands???? they were 77 with 1)339 and 2)399

sorry to keep asking but i am really just trying to get a handle on how to aproach pocket pairs with a pair on the board. as i mentioned above i didn't find much help in the books mentioned. i also went to BnN and looked at their poker books and only found one paragraph dealing with this situation in 1/2 dozen books.

p 65 of the complete book of holdem by carson gave this ex--44 flop 883 it said to only play after the flop if 1) the pair on the board is middle rank or smaller as this would make it less likely that someone would be holding a set AND 2) if the other board card is lower than your pocket pair.

thanks
mike

[sandrew]

I imagine this is limit.. (I am not much of a limit player)

If limit it would depend on where i was at. Early position i would check it. I am not sure you are going to be able to steal with one bet. If i were late and there were callers i would raise depending on the number of callers. 1 - 2 would be good with me last to act.

If this was NL. I might through in a healthy bet 1/2 - 3/4 pot if early position. If called i wouuld check the turn (unless you really think they have nothing then fire again). If I am raised i fold. In late position with someone that bet in front i would most likely fold and save my chips. The reason for the bet early in NL is a probing bet, find out where you are. Its a semi bluff/probe that might win the hand right there, which you want to do.