K3o from BB in large pots

[Griffin]

Both of these hands were at a Pacific $2/4 table.

Hand 1
UTG is aggressive; plays good cards; comes in for a raise if first in.
MP plays hands like A8o from anywhere.

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif. LMP posts and CO posts.

<font color="red">UTG raises</font> , EP folds, MP cold-calls, LMP poster calls, CO poster calls, Button cold-calls, SB folds, I call.

Flop: (12sb) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif

It gets checked around.

Turn: (6bb) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, <font color="red">UTG bets</font>, MP calls, LMP folds, CO folds, Button calls, I call.

What do you think of my preflop call and my turn call?



Hand 2
Just sat down in the BB so no reads.

Prelop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif. EP posts.

UTG calls, EP checks, EMP calls, MP calls, LP calls, CO calls, <font color="red">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero(BB) calls, UTG calls, EP calls, EMP calls, MP calls, LP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (18sb) K/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif

<font color="red">SB bets</font>, I call, UTG folds, EP calls, EMP calls, MP calls, LP calls, CO calls, <font color="red">Button raises</font>, SB calls,

Hero(BB) calls, EP calls, EMP calls, MP calls, LP folds, CO calls.

Turn: (16bb) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, I check, <font color="red">EP bets</font>, EMP folds, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: (21bb) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, <font color="red">EP bets</font>, MP folds, CO calls, Button calls, I call.


In this hand, where would you have raised or folded and why?

[Redeye]

You really like K3o, eh? Well, I don't think its a great call in hand 1 or 2. Hand 1 you are getting like 11:1, so its probably not the biggest leak in the world, but you have a hand that is increadibly hard to play out out of position in a big pot. The preflop call probably isn't horrible, but the amount of money its going to cause you to piss away is a problem if you hit anything on the flop. BTW, I think the turn call in hand 1 is bad.

In hand 2 your getting like 10:1 immediate and probably like 15:1, I'd probably have a hard time not gambooling it up with a lot of hands here, but again its going to be tough to play, as you can see by how the hand played out. This hand ended up being tough. I don't know what to do, your getting 19:1 on the flop, and you have top pair with a crappy kicker. Unfortunately with this flop there is a large chance your getting raised behind you. When button raises your getting like 27:1 on the call the next time and probably have to make it here since there is a chance you have 3 outs. I dunno, I'm just babbling and realize that your preflop call put you in a terrible spot and playing this hand is going to be almost impossible to do correctly.

[rmarotti]

[ QUOTE ]

MP plays hands like A8o from anywhere.


[/ QUOTE ]

And Hero plays hands like K3o from anywhere. wtf?

[mr pink]

i'm folding preflop in both of these.

turn call in hand 1 is ok, getting like 9 to 1 to hit your wheel.

hand 2, check/raise the turn. all those callers in there will provide some protection to the times when EP has you outkicked. if he 3-bets here, you're probably in trouble and can check/call the turn. but fold preflop.

[Griffin]

[ QUOTE ]
You really like K3o, eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh...It seems like it, doesn't it? It was just a fluke that these two hands came up within a few days of each other. The only reason I played them in these hands was, as you said, the 11:1 or better odds I was getting. Obviously, I'm hoping to flop two pair or something like 7 3 3.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I think the turn call in hand 1 is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was getting 9:1 and I needed 10.5:1 to chase the 4s for the straight. I was in a position to CR so I thought implied odds allowed for the turn call. However, after the hand I realized that with two of the fours being dirty and that if the 4 does come a CR attempt might whiff, I now believe the turn call is a mistake.

[ QUOTE ]
In hand 2 your getting like 10:1 immediate and probably like 15:1, I'd probably have a hard time not gambooling it up with a lot of hands here, but again its going to be tough to play, as you can see by how the hand played out. This hand ended up being tough. I don't know what to do, your getting 19:1 on the flop, and you have top pair with a crappy kicker. Unfortunately with this flop there is a large chance your getting raised behind you. When button raises your getting like 27:1 on the call the next time and probably have to make it here since there is a chance you have 3 outs. I dunno, I'm just babbling and realize that your preflop call put you in a terrible spot and playing this hand is going to be almost impossible to do correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's my thinking of each street of Hand 2. I'm open to hearing all the ways I'm wrong.

Preflop: Getting enormous odds.

Flop: I've got top pair crappy kicker, probably should fold. But the pot is huge. There was a time where I would've raised SB's flop bet, but I don't think that would be the correct play here. No straight or flush draw is leaving for two sbs. I decided to call SBs flop bet and raise him on the turn.

When Button raised the flop, I had to call due to odds. (I think)

Turn: SB didn't bet out for me to raise, so I checked, planning to raise the Button. But then EP bet and got several callers. No one is leaving if I raise, and I'm not sure I can raise for value here, so I just call.

River: Unless someone has a straight, AK, KQ, KJ, or K4, I'm splitting the pot. (I don't give anyone credit for QQ, JJ, or 44) I figure a check-call will win me the most if I'm ahead, and lose me the least if I'm behind.

So how screwy is that thinking?

[BigEndian]

Both of these are horrible preflop calls. Do you not see why? Hand two is a closer decision (like like the moon is closer driving distance than the sun). Do you see why this is?

- Jim

[Griffin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

MP plays hands like A8o from anywhere.


[/ QUOTE ]

And Hero plays hands like K3o from anywhere. wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/blush.gif Hero does not play K3o from anywhere (K4o sure, but that's a much stronger hand /images/graemlins/wink.gif ).

I played it from the BB where it's one more small bet to me in a huge pot. I guess even under these circumstances it is still a mistake?

[BigEndian]

You will never get large enough odds to make up for the big hands you must make with your holding.

- Jim

[tetonpete]

fold em both preflop...what flop do you want to see? in the second hand, you flopped top pair and here everyone is telling you to fold for one small bet. Even two pair is conterfeited too often to make this call good. You need to flop trips, basically, and it just doesn't happen that often.
in the second hand, if you're going to continue, you have to raise, but i'd probably fold it as you could well be forced to call a 3 bet and try to continue with a top pair, no kicker and no redraws in a pot where no one is goinganywhere.

[Griffin]

[ QUOTE ]
Both of these are horrible preflop calls. Do you not see why? Hand two is a closer decision (like like the moon is closer driving distance than the sun). Do you see why this is?

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I see why. The more I consider it the more embarassed I am. Poor postion, not suited, crap kicker, no equity, multiple opponents, liklihood of multiple raises, etc. etc.

I got blinded by the "it's only one more small bet to me in a huge pot" syndrome. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I'll go back to SSH and review what hands I should be calling with here.

[Redeye]

[ QUOTE ]
Both of these are horrible preflop calls. Do you not see why? Hand two is a closer decision (like like the moon is closer driving distance than the sun). Do you see why this is?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think any preflop call can really every be called "horrible" when getting from 11:1 in the first hand to probably 15:1 in the second. Certainly there are calls that may be slightly -EV, but you can get away with playing a lot of crap in this spot. I would play a lot of unsuited connectors, onegaps, two gaps, I'd play almost any ace, any two suited, ect.

[BigEndian]

I think you're being argumentative. These two calls are definitively horrible. How often are you going to flop big hands? How often are your single and two pair hands going to hold up? How often to you end up going the distance because the pot is huge?

- Jim

[Griffin]

Hand 1:
River was a 4/images/graemlins/club.gif. I check, UTG bets, MP calls, Button calls, I raise, UTG calls, MP folds, Button folds.

I take down the 16 bb pot.

Hand 2:
EP is holding K6o. He and I split the 25bb pot.


I knew that if I didn't post these hands, I would let winning them delude me into thinking I played them OK.

Getting past the preflop mistakes, anybody else want to comment on the best way to play hand 2 postflop?

[Redeye]

[ QUOTE ]
think you're being argumentative. These two calls are definitively horrible. How often are you going to flop big hands? How often are your single and two pair hands going to hold up? How often to you end up going the distance because the pot is huge?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not being argumentative. I'm just saying, with that big of an overlay, calling with just about any two cards couldn't be that big of a leak. I said in my original post that I still thought it was probably a bad PF call. However, give me even a slightly better kicker, like K8 or so and I'm probably in both of these pots.

[BigEndian]

Fold the flop in hand 2. The SB bet into a crowd with a broadway flop. While you have top pair, raising here is futile. And there are too many people left to act whom this flop most likely hit - if not body slammed.

- Jim