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QTip

03-05-2005, 08:37 AM

MP2 is an extreme LA-A (more like maniac PF)
MP1 is very loose but passive

Would you play this differently....especially the river?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $2. Hero posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) raises, 1 fold, Hero (poster) 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 caps, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (12.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, UTG folds, MP1 3-bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (21.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 23.75 BB

03-05-2005, 08:53 AM

I would have 3-betted the flop...

QTip

03-05-2005, 09:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have 3-betted the flop...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thought about it, but decided to wait for a non-spade turn.

jason_t

03-05-2005, 09:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thought about it, but decided to wait for a non-spade turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charge them to draw while you still have what is likely the best hand.

jason_t

03-05-2005, 09:36 AM

3-bet the flop.

Nick C

03-05-2005, 09:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thought about it, but decided to wait for a non-spade turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charge them to draw while you still have what is likely the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure how you mean this, but, for the record, anyone with a flush draw isn't exactly getting charged on the flop, in this multiway pot.

jason_t

03-05-2005, 09:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how you mean this, but, for the record, anyone with a flush draw isn't exactly getting charged on the flop, in this multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flush draws aren't the only draws out there. Hero should take their money while they are drawing.

Nick C

03-05-2005, 10:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flush draws aren't the only draws out there. Hero should take their money while they are drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a good chance I would have 3-bet the flop. I can see advantages to waiting, though. The pot is so big that, by the time the action gets back to Hero on the flop, he can't really put a whole lot of pressure on anyone, including UTG.

If Hero is ahead on the flop, and it's reasonable to think he is (though the passive player's flop checkraise is a little scary), his advantage will increase on a turn blank (or possibly disappear entirely if, for instance, an ace falls). If 3-betting the flop will lead to MP1 checking, say, his A9 or TT to Hero on the turn, whereas he'll bet it if Hero just calls the flop raise, then waiting until the turn could be a good play, I think.

I'm not sure, though. I have trouble figuring out when it's best to wait until the turn to raise, sometimes. In this hand, if MP1 just has A9, there's a chance he'll be scared by a lot of cards on the turn and just check anyway, whether Hero 3-bets the flop or not.

QTip

03-05-2005, 11:09 AM

Jason:

Thanks for the input, although I disagree. I think this hand closely resembles the "Overhand Example" in SSHE page 185 where we have TT. There are a lot of overcards that can hurt us, 12 to be exact...not to mention any spade can hurt as well.

I'm not sure why I can hearing "charge the draw"....we're not charging a flush draw on the flop, they can't get enough money in a 4 handed pot on the flop.

Catt

03-05-2005, 11:34 AM

That's quite some action from a passive MP1.

rmarotti

03-05-2005, 02:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That's quite some action from a passive MP1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah. Did you mix up the reads?

tetonpete

03-05-2005, 03:34 PM

you ARE charging a flush draw, in the sense that he's paying you. If you are ahead here, you and he are both getting paid by those who are behind or drawing to lesser hands than the flush. You will beat the flush draw moe often than he beats you; therefore he calls YOUR bet at a disadvantage. Of course he doesn't care, because there are also others coming along to pay him off. A9 is paying you both; you just get more it than he does.

Bob T.

03-05-2005, 03:43 PM

Charge them to draw while you still have what is likely the best hand.

But on the turn, after a safe looking card, his edge is bigger, and the investment he can require from his opponents is also bigger. He has position, this is a great time to use it.

tetonpete

03-05-2005, 03:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But on the turn, after a safe looking card, his edge is bigger, and the investment he can require from his opponents is also bigger. He has position, this is a great time to use it.

[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely...3 betting the flop here will not fold out overcards or smaller pairs. A turn raise will.

LoaferGee12

03-05-2005, 05:10 PM

I feel like the raise on the turn is spewing. There are very few passive players that will c/r this flop and bet the turn with a hand that you have beat.

jason_t

03-05-2005, 05:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Jason:

Thanks for the input, although I disagree. I think this hand closely resembles the "Overhand Example" in SSHE page 185 where we have TT. There are a lot of overcards that can hurt us, 12 to be exact...not to mention any spade can hurt as well.

I'm not sure why I can hearing "charge the draw"....we're not charging a flush draw on the flop, they can't get enough money in a 4 handed pot on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point and so see the advantange of waiting until the turn to raise (pushing an edge, and protecting). I feel there is some advantage in 3-betting the flop though, among which you get better feel for how much MP1 likes his hand.