Marginal offsuit limp UTG, fold to raise?

[thesharpie]

I usually fold ATo and KJo UTG, but I decided to limp in one time... Someone in MP1 raised. I hadn't seen him raise anything before the flop all night, and when he bet he always seemed to have trips. I knew I was dominated, perhaps he even had pocket aces. Two other people called yet I folded because I wouldn't know what to do if a king came up. Would it be worth a call for someone if they knew how to play this well after the flop?

And I'm asking about calling the reraise, not calling UTG to begin with. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

He ended up showing AKo by the way...

[college_boy]

If you're not gonna call a raise why limp with it? Also even if you suspect you're dominated you should still call the raise. The flop just has to hit you pretty hard.

[reubenf]

I call this easy. You're getting 7:1 or more. I don't mean to be results-oriented, but do you know that AK is only a 3:1 favorite over KT?

Anyway, I usually bet when I flop top pair, fold to a 3-bet behind me but call just a raise then check/fold the turn unimproved.

I try not to fold just because I won't know what to do if my cards come. I'll never learn what to do when my cards come if I do that.

[Bizot]

personally if i am UTG or first in the pot i will raise AT and KJ. but i still call preflop and play it from there.

[reubenf]

[ QUOTE ]
personally if i am UTG or first in the pot i will raise AT and KJ. but i still call preflop and play it from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I want a multiway pot when I'm out of position with ATo and KJo. I don't really want to isolate the hands that dominate me.

[maestro037]

[ QUOTE ]
I want a multiway pot when I'm out of position with ATo and KJo..

[/ QUOTE ]

No you don't.....they play terribly multi-way. You are trying to scare off anything marginal that would limp, such as weak Ax. You just have to be ready to get away from it if 3-bet.

Maestro

[reubenf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want a multiway pot when I'm out of position with ATo and KJo..

[/ QUOTE ]

No you don't.....they play terribly multi-way. You are trying to scare off anything marginal that would limp, such as weak Ax. You just have to be ready to get away from it if 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like these hands mutliway rather than against only hands that will call a raise. They have some straight potential and it's less bad for you to be dominated in a multiway pot. By raising you fold a lot of hands that you have an edge on and not many that have an edge on you. I really don't want to play these hands out of position only against hands that will call a raise.

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want a multiway pot when I'm out of position with ATo and KJo..

[/ QUOTE ]

No you don't.....they play terribly multi-way. You are trying to scare off anything marginal that would limp, such as weak Ax. You just have to be ready to get away from it if 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like these hands mutliway rather than against only hands that will call a raise. They have some straight potential and it's less bad for you to be dominated in a multiway pot. By raising you fold a lot of hands that you have an edge on and not many that have an edge on you. I really don't want to play these hands out of position only against hands that will call a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Top pair is less likely to hold up multiway, which is why small PP's and suited connectors go up on value multiway. You would prefer to be suited in these instances (multiway pots), as being unsuited leaves you less ways to hit the flop, and ultimately less ways to win the pot.

[reubenf]

[ QUOTE ]
Top pair is less likely to hold up multiway,

[/ QUOTE ]

So is every hand.

[ QUOTE ]
which is why small PP's and suited connectors go up on value multiway.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, sets and flushes lose a lot less equity when more people enter the pot, and thereby gain value. That doesn't mean ATo, KJo don't gain value when more people enter the pot. Sure, they lose more equity than some other hands, but what's that got to do with anything? That doesn't mean they don't gain value as well, it just means they gain less value.

Suppose you tell me JJ is a great preflop hand and you should be putting in many bets preflop with it. Now suppose I respond by telling you AA is a great hand to put bets in preflop with because it always flops top pair, and KK usually does too, but JJ often doesn't flop top pair so it's a bad hand to put bets in preflop with. You wouldn't buy that argument, and I'm not buying the argument that KJo is a bad multiway hand just because some other hand is a better multiway hand.

[ QUOTE ]
You would prefer to be suited in these instances (multiway pots), as being unsuited leaves you less ways to hit the flop, and ultimately less ways to win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd also prefer to have pocket Aces instead. Sadly that has nothing to do with the question.

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose you tell me JJ is a great preflop hand and you should be putting in many bets preflop with it. Now suppose I respond by telling you AA is a great hand to put bets in preflop with because it always flops top pair, and KK usually does too, but JJ often doesn't flop top pair so it's a bad hand to put bets in preflop with. You wouldn't buy that argument, and I'm not buying the argument that KJo is a bad multiway hand just because some other hand is a better multiway hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA,KK,QQ, and so on are made hands. You don't have to hit the flop with them, you can only improve from what is often top pair.