Did this dealer make a mistake?

[NLSoldier]

8/16 at Viejas. Villian in this hand is a LAG, borderline maniac, moron.

Our hands don't matter. I checkraise the turn and he calls. I bet out on the river, he delays for a bit and then raises. I do not see that he raised, I only saw that he put chips in the pot which I thought was a call. My confusion was possibly due to many of the last few pots being kill pots so I was used to the double sized river bet. I honestly do not know. I do know that neither the player or the dealer or anyone else ever said the word "raise" on the river. Anyways, at this point everyone is looking back at me and I'm thinking its a showdown. So lay my hand face up right in front of me. I then look over at the villian to see if he is going to show or muck. What is the correct thing for the dealer to do at this point?

Possible choices would include:
A)Saying something to the effect that there was a raise or confirming that I am folding.
B)Immediatly Mucking my hand.


So the villian just sits there for a few seconds holding his cards facedown. He then flips over his cards and as he does so, I suddenly see the pot getting shipped his way. I'm like "WTF are you doing, I had 2 pair!" And the dealer is like "no you fold." And I say, "no I didn't, I bet." And shes like "he raise." By this time she has mucked my cards and there is basically nothing I can do about it. I didn't call the floor because my cards were in the muck and he was already stacking the pot so I don't think they would have done anything.

So, my question is: Did the dealer screw up by immediatly mucking my hand when it seemed fairly obvious that I thought it was a showdown and by not informing me that he raised before I flipped my cards over in the first place? Or was this 100% my fault for not seeing that he raised?

[The Dude]

Rule of thumb: Don't let the dealer touch your cards until you get pushed the pot or you acknowledge that you lose.

I would have called a floorman anyway. Your hand was exposed for the dealer and the whole table to see. It could still be ruled live.

[Photoc]

Ok, here is my decision as a dealer. If someone raises, I usually will announce raise. But in higher limit games, a silent dealer is a good dealer. The players usually pay attention to the size of the bet and will ask if it has been raised. I see a bet, raise, then a player tosses their cards in face up is basically saying "I fold, I can't beat your hand with these cards once I saw you raise". I would grab these cards as soon as they hit the table.

Now if you were to turn them right in front of you vs tossing them forward, I would probably inform you there was a raise. The only thing you as a player can do, is to ask the dealer to notify you if there is a raise next time.

IMO, players should pay attention at all times to the action if you are in the hand.

Here are a couple of quotes from Robert's Rules of Poker...
[ QUOTE ]

25. A player is expected to pay attention to the game and not hold up play. Activity that interferes with this such as reading at the table is discouraged, and the player will be asked to cease if a problem is caused.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared

[/ QUOTE ]

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]

I would have called a floorman anyway. Your hand was exposed for the dealer and the whole table to see. It could still be ruled live.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry dude, once a hand is killed, it's dead. There only exception to retrieving of a hand in poker once it's in the muck is the following:

[ QUOTE ]
2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also take into consideration:
[ QUOTE ]
. You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Rule of thumb: Don't let the dealer touch your cards until you get pushed the pot or you acknowledge that you lose.

I would have called a floorman anyway. Your hand was exposed for the dealer and the whole table to see. It could still be ruled live.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no way the floor would have let me call after the fact, because by this time the other idiot had shown his bluff. And the rest of the table somehow was retarded enough to think that I was showing because I thought I was making a sweet laydonwn (top two pair on a board with no flush and very little striaght possibility), not because I thought it was a showdown.

I usually use your rule of thumb as well, but she just snatched em and mucked em before I knew what had happened /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]

. You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly this is reffering to before showdown. Lets say he didn't raise and just called. And then I lay my hand on the table and he shows a loser that the dealer thinks is a winner and quickily mucks my hand....theres no way that guy is going to get to keep that pot. By TABLING your hand you ARE protecting it, because now the dealer, the camera, and everyone else has seen it. You cant be expected to keep your cards in your hand during a showdown, at most places your hand doesnt even count until both cards are laid on the table face up.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
But in higher limit games, a silent dealer is a good dealer.

[/ QUOTE ]

This game is far from "higher limit" The players are generally clueless and the good dealers are constantly telling people when its their turn and announcing all action.

[Photoc]

Sorry bro, but once a hand is killed and in the muck, its not going to get pushed your way. DO NOT LET GO of those cards. If they are sitting on the table, they can accidentaly be killed. It happened at work the other day when a girl turned over a straight, the dealer thought she missed, killed her hand, and pushed the pot to the guy with 2 pair. Floor decision was, PROTECT YOUR HAND, Do not let go of those cards until you get the pot. Hold on to them face up on the table, lay your hand on them, put a shoe on them, whatever. Those cards are your responsibility. Mistakes happen, that's life.

Edit: I've seen this happen in games that I've played in and the floor decision is always the same. "hand is dead, protect your cards until you get the pot", and thats the end of it.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Possible choices would include:
A)Saying something to the effect that there was a raise or confirming that I am folding.
B)Immediatly Mucking my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither of these is correct. When a dealer is faced with a faceup hand that he is preparing to muck he should turn it down in the spot where the player left it. This alerts the player his hand is about to be mucked and gives him an opportunity to protect it.

Randy Refeld

[NLSoldier]

This makes a lot of sense imo.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry bro, but once a hand is killed and in the muck, its not going to get pushed your way. DO NOT LET GO of those cards. If they are sitting on the table, they can accidentaly be killed. It happened at work the other day when a girl turned over a straight, the dealer thought she missed, killed her hand, and pushed the pot to the guy with 2 pair. Floor decision was, PROTECT YOUR HAND, Do not let go of those cards until you get the pot. Hold on to them face up on the table, lay your hand on them, put a shoe on them, whatever. Those cards are your responsibility. Mistakes happen, that's life.

Edit: I've seen this happen in games that I've played in and the floor decision is always the same. "hand is dead, protect your cards until you get the pot", and thats the end of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I just noticed that your location is vegas. And at most vegas consinos I know you are correct. But at many other places I have played this is not the case. The floor is willing to turn cards back over that have partially hit the muck and also willing to go to the camera to decide. I have however, on more than one occasion, when a situation like this comes up, heard an older guy say something to the effect of "In Vegas your hand would have been killed you know" to the player whose hand is being dug out of the muck or whatever. So I understand where you are coming from, but that is not the case everywhere.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
heard an older guy say something to the effect of "In Vegas your hand would have been killed you know"

[/ QUOTE ]

The hand is more likely to be ruled dead in smaller rooms that don't put an emphasis on rules and procedures. Even in Las Vegas rulings are to be in the interest of fairness.

RR

edit: I was referring to general cases where a hand gets mucked, not this particular example.

[RacersEdge]

Wow, the things to think about in a live game. That would make me more than a little angry. I would be hard pressed to tip this dealer the rest of the night.

[NLSoldier]

I considered getting the 200 or so that I lost from that pot back by not tipping her the next 200 winners she deals me...LOL. But I wanted to make sure it was at least partially here fault first.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Excellent rules quotes.

In this situation, the player with the "supposed" winning hand was a dumb-ass for letting go of his friggin' cards before the action was complete.

The one thing I emphasize constantly is "NEVER LET GO OF YOUR CARDS UNTIL THEY PUSH YOU THE MONEY."

In this case, even tho he turned his cards over early, his hand is not dead, and had he held onto them, he would have had every right to not only call, but to reraise, even though his hand was now known to the other player(s).

However, it looks to the dealer like a face-up fold, and therefore the dealer cannot be blamed for the unfortunate outcome.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
By TABLING your hand you ARE protecting it, because now the dealer, the camera, and everyone else has seen it. You cant be expected to keep your cards in your hand during a showdown

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry NL, but no dice on this one. If you toss your hand in face up in the face of a bet, it's still a fold if you didn't call the bet.

And once again...

NEVER LET GO OF YOUR CARDS UNTIL THEY PUSH YOU THE MONEY.

There are NO exceptions to this rule, period.

It may be necessary to change this to the FIRST rule of poker.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

In the interest of fairness, if I was making a decision in this case, I MIGHT rule that the hand is retrievable. It's of course situational dependent, and the precise situation and atmosphere that the floor had to work with at the time is not precisely clear to me. I might have ruled that the hand was dead too, it just depends on what was up when I got to the table and had to decide.

However, in the end, it's still your responsibility to NEVER LET GO OF YOUR CARDS UNTIL THEY PUSH YOU THE MONEY. So even IF the floor ruled incorrectly here (which he probably didn't) it was still the player's fault for not following what may be "the cardinal rule of poker." Protect your hand includes holding on to it during decisions on disputes.

al

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
It's of course situational dependent,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the correct answer to virtually all questions about what the floor should decide.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
she just snatched em and mucked em before I knew what had happened

[/ QUOTE ]

Bottom line is you let go of your cards before you knew for a fact that you had legitimately lost the hand. Your bad.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

al

[NLSoldier]

Are you [censored] kidding me? Are you seriously saying that every time you show your hand down you physically keep your cards IN your hands until you have the pot? I'm calling BS.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you [censored] kidding me? Are you seriously saying that every time you show your hand down you physically keep your cards IN your hands until you have the pot? I'm calling BS

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty standard. Actually you keep your hand on your cards. There is no reason for the dealer to move the player's cards at showdown.

RR

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you [censored] kidding me? Are you seriously saying that every time you show your hand down you physically keep your cards IN your hands until you have the pot? I'm calling BS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily in your hand, but nowhere near the dealer, the muck, or the middle of the table. In short, in your hand is the safest place. I always show while holding the cards. If the other guy clearly mucks, I'll release, but Al will advise to wait until the chips actually show up in front of you.

-Milo

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you [censored] kidding me? Are you seriously saying that every time you show your hand down you physically keep your cards IN your hands until you have the pot? I'm calling BS.

[/ QUOTE ]

My cards stay in my control until I have the pot.

[jedi]

Two things that I'll repeat:

1) Protect your hand.
2) Pay attention to the betting.

It's not the dealer's responsiblity to protect your hand for you, and it's not his responsibility to call out all the raises either.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you [censored] kidding me? Are you seriously saying that every time you show your hand down you physically keep your cards IN your hands until you have the pot? I'm calling BS.

[/ QUOTE ]

My cards stay in my control until I have the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Up until now I had always thought I did a pretty good job of keeping my cards "in my control" I've played a lot of live poker and this is the first time anything like this has ever happened, but needless to say I will be keeping my hands physically on my cards from now on. I'll consider it a relatively cheap lesson having this happen now rather than a few years down the road when im (hopefully) playing a much higher limit and the mistake could be much more costly.

Also, I confirmed in my session friday night that this dealer is in fact the worst dealer in the room. She was the only dealer that I saw that did not announce just about every action and things like the number of players, whether it was a kill pot, etc. Also, she tried to make me post or wait for the big blind after getting to the main game from the must move. (At this particular casino you dont even have to post in if you are a totally new player, not even considering the must move) How she doesnt know something as routine as that I have no clue, but Ive decided shes definately not getting any more tips.

[MrDannimal]

Whenever I table my cards, and I'm not consciously folding, I flip them over and then put my fingers on them. I'm usually doing it to adjust the cards so they can be seen easily, but I also do it to keep them from being swiped pre-maturely.

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you [censored] kidding me? Are you seriously saying that every time you show your hand down you physically keep your cards IN your hands until you have the pot? I'm calling BS.

[/ QUOTE ]
We're not kidding. It's not BS. But everyone has been in your shoes, everyone has experienced this, and that is why we are so anal and protective of our hand.

Glenn's hand got mucked once, now he is so overly cautious that one time a dealer had to literally pry the cards out from under his pressed down fingers.

El Diablo has said many times that he does not surrender the cards, period, until he has the pot.

I take the stance of not giving up the cards until they wrench them out of my cold, dead fingers unless the pot is in front of me.

This is because of past experience, not because we are so bright /images/graemlins/wink.gif

In today's poker world, the dealer does less and less for us, and we must protect ourselves more and more. Many of us didn't realize just how good we had it until the poker boom. Looking at my watch and seeing 14 minutes go by during ONE O8 hand was a real wake up call. I certainly hadn't realized just how much I took for granted the pre-2002 poker boom dealers. Not that it was ever their job to protect us, but they surely did!

As an even more absurd example (to make you feel better, I hope), Commerce has instituted a policy about cards going off the table. I believe this was patterned after the Bike's policy, which began last summer (someone please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not from LA).

Anyway, the rule in tourneys is that if a card goes off the table, the player pays the penalty. It doesn't matter if the dealer pitches the card off the table, it doesn't matter if it hits your finger then goes sliding off. The TD knows that it is not your fault in any way, shape or form, but you still get a 20 minute penalty.

Supposedly this rule was put into effect because of angle shooting at the Bike and in LA in general (again, correct me if I'm wrong here).

While I won't go into the whole angle shooting scheme, I really do have a point, lol.

Anyway, The Hendon Mob posted a story about how two players got into a fight at Commerce. Cursing, arguing, rolling around on the floor, etc. They each got a 15 minute penalty. Barny, however, had a hand where the dealer pitched the card off the table. He got a 20 minute penalty, lol.

Hmmm, two guys fighting, F-- word being slung back and forth, rolling around on the ground...15 minutes. Barny has a dealer who pitches a card off the table which Barny never touched...20 minutes...

Boy, has poker changed in the past three years!

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif
www.felicialee.net (http://www.felicialee.net)

[Clarkmeister]

Yes

[RacersEdge]

Why don't the tables just have a big oval in the middle signifying a "muck zone" so there is no question about the meaning of players actions?

[NLSoldier]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I was apperently a little out of line with the "are you [censored] kidding me" comment. The concept of protecting your hand is really not new to me and like I said, this is the first time Ive run into any problem with it. I have always done things like hold on to my cards until I am actually shipped the pot when everyone folds and there is no showdown. But I'm still a bit confused about what exactly you guys do at showdown. Do you keep your hand with cards in it in the air and just flash your hand, or do you lay your cards on the table and just keep a finger on each card? It seems like it has to be the latter because in my experience many cardrooms do not allow the former and say you must lay both cards on the table for your hand to win. Maybe I'm wrong about this too though.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
say you must lay both cards on the table for your hand to win

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to show your hand and "make a claim for the pot." If you inadvertantly shwo the winner while throwing your cards in the muck you don't win. I have seen a few diferent way to showdown your hadn and still protect it. One way is to hold it in your hand and show it face up on the table; another isto put the cards on the table and keep your hand on them showing half the card

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you seriously saying that every time you show your hand down you physically keep your cards IN your hands until you have the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. Not kidding. No BS. Totally serious. Cardinal rule of poker. First thing I teach beginners. Basic cardroom ettiquette 101.

al