STATS !

[Trix]

Hi, I know you all love these, but I have a feeling that my game have gotten pretty tight/weak lately, so in effort to change this I´m gonna post the stats from my last ~10K hands and see what will come from it.

Any comments, questions and what not is appreciated.

http://img218.exs.cx/img218/8702/last10kmoredetail9rp.jpg

Many thanks !

[Zygote]

I wouldn't advise you to do anything i wouldn't do myself, so here are my last 10,600hands that might help you. You defend your BB better than me, other than that i agree with my stats more. Hopefully these cna help you, if you have any specific questions, just ask.

http://img86.exs.cx/img86/8894/mystats9jc.th.jpg (http://img86.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img86&image=mystats9jc.jpg)

[wuarhg]

Indeed I would say that you could play a few more hands, raise more and maybe call on the river a bit more? But shrugs, over 10k hands I dunno how much these numbers fluctuate, shouldn't be that much?

[imitation]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't advise you to do anything i wouldn't do myself, so here are my last 10,600hands that might help you. You defend your BB better than me, other than that i agree with my stats more. Hopefully these cna help you, if you have any specific questions, just ask.

http://img86.exs.cx/img86/8894/mystats9jc.th.jpg (http://img86.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img86&image=mystats9jc.jpg)

[/ QUOTE ]

21 MSN windows WTF dude??

[Nate tha' Great]

http://www.fatattitude.com/software/screenshots/logo-play.jpg
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/gifs/More.rd.gif
http://ethel.as.arizona.edu/~collins/astro/img/hands.gif
http://www.betterbodz.com/images/ex.gif

[MAxx]

on top of the play more and raise more suggestions, i think you are folding too much postflop.

the reason i say this is that your agression factors are pretty high, you dont make it to show down enough, you do win a high % at showdown, and your fold to a river-bet is too high.

looks a little weak-tyte to me.

[Trix]

The vpip, pfr and so on will be pretty acurate. Position rates wont, but I just posted that one, so you would get vpip/pfr by position aswell.

[Trix]

Finaly a post I can understand !



Gonna look through PT for stuff I have folded and post it I guess.

[arkady]

I am a firm believer at this point, that posting stats under 50k is next to useless. Having said that, I fail to see what is so weak-tight about your game. Your aggression is higher than most, you steal plenty, you defend plenty.

In fact, I might suggest you are on the opposite spectrum of weak-tight!

[MAxx]

i agree with what you are saying generally ark. trix is no doubt agressive.

i did not mean to suggest he was weak and tyte and passive.

i mean is weak tight in the sense that he folds too much with hands he shouldnt probably be folding. doing this, would in fact raise a players aggression facter.

10K hands isnt a ton i agree, and you could be getting coldecked or missing flops in an unusually bad way. but it looks like you are folding like a Nancy a good bit of the time.

[Trix]

I have around 40K 5/10 hands, but I change my game seems to swing in aggression and tightness, but the last 10 I have played pretty much the same, so I figured they would make more sense than the average of my play since I started..

[ QUOTE ]
Your aggression is higher than most, you steal plenty, you defend plenty.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont really think this number has so much to do with agression. It´s bet%+raise% divided by call %, so checking or folding isn´t condidered here.
Mine is probably high because I dont call much, I either like my hand or I dont I guess. I think these numbers could be way higher actually if I didn´t check the turn behind as much as I do.
So, well basicly, you can´t get that much from this number, except that high means that people dont call much and low means that they call alot and bet/raise a little.


[ QUOTE ]
Your aggression is higher than most, you steal plenty, you defend plenty

[/ QUOTE ]

So the problem gotta be playing UTG/UTG+1 or when someone else have entered the pot infront?

[spider]

58.7% win $ @ SD
48.4% fold to river bet

you are folding on the river way too much

[Gazza]

Maybe you should try an experiment post flop for a while. Play your normal game when you have a good hand and play like a calling station when you have a marginal hand!
You might be surprised by the results

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I am a firm believer at this point, that posting stats under 50k is next to useless. Having said that, I fail to see what is so weak-tight about your game. Your aggression is higher than most, you steal plenty, you defend plenty.

In fact, I might suggest you are on the opposite spectrum of weak-tight!

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't play enough hands. I'm tired of endlessly harping on this subject but an 18% VPIP at games that are running about 5-handed on the average is just woefully inadequate IM(NSH)O, especially for a Scandinavian!

I don't know at what point it got established on this forum that a VPIP like that is acceptable. It's grossly incorrect play.

[spider]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you should try an experiment post flop for a while. Play your normal game when you have a good hand and play like a calling station when you have a marginal hand!
You might be surprised by the results

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Gazza, if I didn't think you were a smart guy, I'd think you were putzing around here. But assuming you're not just messing with me, would you care to explain this? And are you saying that you think Trix is not folding on the river too much. I'm baffled at what you are saying.

That does sound like a fun experiment though...

[Dominic]

stupid question - how do you make a screen shot of your PT stats and post it on here? I'd like to do the same.

Thanks!

[spider]

[ QUOTE ]
play like a calling station when you have a marginal hand!

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this apply with or w/o position or both? Coincidentally, I have lately been thinking about the advantages of calling station style with a marginal hand HU out of position.

[MAxx]

while we are doing experiments with trix, why dont we try this:

have trix draw up his starting hand chart as he currently plays (MEBENHOE style). Then we alter his starting hand chart to get his vpip from 18 to 25 and then throw him in the pool and see how he swims.

[Gazza]

I am saying that he is folding too much.
He should call more often on every street. Calling is not a crime. Everytime he has a slight doubt about whether he should call or fold then call. Especially on the river! Don't forget how much BS there is in these games and you lose repect, as well as money, if you keep folding on the river.

I believe he will do better playing like this than a strict fit or fold strategy.
Afterwards he can find the happy medium which is surely the optimal strategy.

But as Nate (and others) pointed out the main problem is a VPIP of 18%. The blinds come round very fast in 6 max. You got to play more. It is too easy for people to put you on hands if you play so little. If you don't like it play full ring.

[Trix]

Sounds like fun /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I´ll do it later today.

[arkady]

nate,

i agree with you completely, i made a post about tightness, specifically it's presence in ex-full players. Coincidentally you made a huge post about people being too tight in the general forum. Its difficult for people who played almost a year in the party full tables to jump here and acquire a 20+ vpip. It made a world of difference in my game and I tried to convey that to others. But all that aside, the 10k sample is indeed meaningless. More meanginless in 6max than it was in full.

[Rudis]

PrtScn
Or Print Screen
Then into paint save as Jpeg=)
and there you go

[Trix]

Here goes:

Openraises:

UTG: 77 AJ KQ_______ATs KTs QTs
MP_: 66 AT KJ QJ_____A7s KTs QTs JTs T9s
CO_: 44 A8 KT QT JT __A2s K9s Q9s T8s 98s
BTN: 22 A6 K8 QT J9 T9 A2s K2s Q8s T7s 97s 76s (Sometimes fold some of the lower ones from CO/BTN depending who is behind).
SB_: 22 A2 K9 Q9 J9 T9 A2s K6s Q8s T7s 86s 76s

Raise one limper in CO with about the same stuff I will open in MP. On the button I need 55 A9 KT QJ A5s K9s QTs JTs.
Against two limpers I´ll raise 88 AJ KQ A9s KTs QJs, limp 22 AT KJ QJ A2s K9s J9s 98s.
In MP against an UTG limper I raise pretty much the same hands as I raise first in from UTG, maybe overlimp JTs.

3bet typical UTG(6-handed) raise with 99 AQ AQs no matter what position I´m in.
3bet MP openraise with 88 AJ ATs KQs
3bet CO openraise with 66 AT KQ A9s KJs (on the button)

Not the prettiest chart, but it will have to do.

I´ll try to type out my blind play later, but there should be more than enough to talk about just here I hope.

Looking forward to hear what you think.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG: 77 AJ KQ_______ATs KTs QTs

[/ QUOTE ]

See now, here's what I'd usually play UTG in a *10* handed game:

55-AA, AJ+, KQ+, A8s+, all broadway suited, K9s and ATo for a raise against tight opponents/blinds, small pocket pairs and other Axs for a limp in a loose passive game.

[Trix]

Got it, limping first in is going to feel pretty weird I guess, but I´ll give it a try /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

You openlimp later than 3 off the button too ?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Got it, limping first in is going to feel pretty weird I guess, but I´ll give it a try /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

You openlimp later than 3 off the button too ?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I'd raise with all of those hands UTG in a 6-handed game. This is not about open-limping. I'd also certainly raise KJo there, oftentimes stuff like KTo, QJo, A9o, A5s-A7s, J9s, T9s, 98s, 44.

[Gazza]

Trix, limping first in is not the solution 6 max (as you know). I think Nate was talking about a full game.
Increase your hands gradually. I suggest raising your MP hands UTG and adding in a few more hands in each position. Nothing drastic. Once you have done that then you can think about some more later. If you want.

[Trix]

Yeah, missunderstood the first post.

Well, many of these I pertty much instafold, but I´ll give it a try.

When you have 44, KTo or such, do you then only raise if you think you have a decent chance at heads up with a blind or staeling right there? or is it enough ok as long as people aren´t super happy 3betters behind and they play bad after the flop ?

[Trix]

I actually liked MAxx´s idea of just loosening me up a ton and then see if it works for me or not...

[MAxx]

I'll suggest some open raises to start off, as I gotta run in a minute. Keep in mind that I am not saying for sure what is 100% correct, more of along the lines of what I do and maybee some things you should consider. I have put these in <font color="blue"> blue </font> .

Openraises:

UTG: 77 AJ KQ_______ATs KTs QTs <font color="blue"> 55,66,AT,KJ, JTs </font>

MP_: 66 AT KJ QJ_____A7s KTs QTs JTs T9s <font color="blue"> 55, A9 </font>
CO_: 44 A8 KT QT JT __A2s K9s Q9s T8s 98s <font color="blue"> A7 </font>

BTN: 22 A6 K8 QT J9 T9 A2s K2s Q8s T7s 97s 76s (Sometimes fold some of the lower ones from CO/BTN depending who is behind). <font color="blue"> A5,A4 </font>

SB_: 22 A2 K9 Q9 J9 T9 A2s K6s Q8s T7s 86s 76s


hmm, i dont know exactly what to think on your open raises. I have not added a ton or as many as I would have hoped, especially considering that you make some raises that I do not. For example I dont raise QJo from MP, and you are more liberal with some of you suited raises. As a side, maybe some of your suited raises are an area I can look at my own game to get my pfr% up a tad.

I will look at your other stuff later on.

Edit, looking at your pfr% it is close to mine (dammit yours is actually higher by half a point)... so it must be another area of VPIP that is lacking even more.

For the record my lifetime 6max pfr% is only 13.31 so I am the Sally here. However my VPIP is 22, and I am looking for 3 points to add there. Still I am curious how yours is only 18 and some change.

[MAxx]

one more quick point. it is probably even more important to get your postflop stuff corrected first cuzz, if you loosen up a ton pf and then continue to fold incorrectly postflop (if that is actually the case) then you will be in a world of hate.

just a warning... not meaning to derail the experiment.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
When you have 44, KTo or such, do you then only raise if you think you have a decent chance at heads up with a blind or staeling right there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the three big factors are the tightness of the big blind, the tightness/aggressiveness of the players between you and the Button, and your table image. At the risk of sounding a little bitchy, figuring out where you're at with respect to these things isn't rocket science.

[Michael Davis]

My VP$IP over my last 50K hands is 4% lower than for the first 170K. I think this is due to the game getting tougher, but maybe I'm just becoming a big pussy. Or just getting colddecked.

-Michael

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know at what point it got established on this forum that a VPIP like that is acceptable. It's grossly incorrect play.

[/ QUOTE ]

that seems a big call to me - i dont think 18% is optimal but i dont think its grossly incorrect

you can definately beat the party 6 max games with a VP$IP of less than 20% - in the longer term i would expect that you would look to play more hands - at least that seems like the natural progression to me - my life time 6 max stats reflect this - i started around 22% and now its starting to creep over 25% - i figure thats because i see more profitable positions than i did when i started (i also attribute this to the advice of some posters here about what those situations might be - nate being one such poster)

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[fyodor]

Thanks to posts by nate, shneids and nikla, I have recently been attempting to get my vpip over 25%. When I first came to 2+2 last year I was running about 35% in the SH games. I was winning, but it was a small sample and I knew I was running well. Thread after thread and post after post convinced me I should get my vpip down to under 22% and after much effort I got it there.

For the last 100,000 hands or so I had been running just under 22%. I was still winning but not a lot. My post flop play improved a lot but I still couldn't get the bb/100 up where I wanted it to be. Finally because of recent posts by the aforementioned unholy trio I decided to start 'lagging it up'.

Not nearly enough hands in yet to draw any specific conclusions but the bb/100 is up slightly. The interesting part of the whole exercise is that I have played so tight for so long, it is next to impossible for me to find hands to play that will push the vpip up. Running just under 25% over the last 40k or so. I have no idea what I used to play that had me at 35%. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Anyhow my advice to Trix is play more hands. Yes you can win at the SH playing super tight (and 18% is unbelievably tight) but I firmly believe you can make more by playing more hands. I just haven't proved it yet.

[MAxx]

I looked your stats some more, and your pfr strategy and compared to my stats to try and figure out where you are shorter on vpip.

What I have come up with is 1) you don't defend blind as much... I am 55/87 where you are 63/89.

2) While our pfr% is similar, you don't limp as much. Now I will concede that limping is frowned upon generally. I predict that the difference is that I overlimp multiple limpers when in late position more often, where you are more inclined to fold. Your pf call % is 5.92 where mine is 10.82.

3) I hate saying this but, I don't think you coldcall PF enough from Button and CO with hands like the smallish to medium PPs when you expect 5 players to take the flop. On your positional stat tab you havent done it at all from CO and only .06 from button. Mine is .38 Button and .15 from CO. Now I don't know how this would increase VPIP much at all, but if you are missing these profitable situtions... I would marinate on that.

There are three things to consider. I want to make the disclaimer that I am not suggesting that my stats are superior or any kind of benchmark. It is just what I have to compare to. Also of course your small sample size could be a limiting factor, eventhough it does suggest some of your tendencies.

[Trix]

I think you are right about the limping, I dont do it much at all.

I think I´ll get back to that though and focus on the openraises first.

Been messing around with pokerrooms EV stats to see what hands I can add. Now I think this may be too loose in some spots, especially if played every time, but it will force me to play more hands for sure.

UTG: 77 AT KT_______A7s K8s Q9s 87s+ (Q8s?, J9s bad, T8s good meh...)
MP : 55 A9 KT QT_____A3s K7s Q8s J9s T8s 76s+ (A9?, JT marginally bad, but prolly good if seleting spots, A2s?, Q7s?, J8s 0.01)
CO : 44 A8 K9 QT JT T9 A2s K4s Q8s J8s T7s 76s+ (A7?,Q9? Q6s?)
BTN: 22 A2 K7 Q8 J8 T8 A2s K2s Q6s J7s T7s 97s 65s+


This looks pretty extreme though..

44-66 are good UTG if you just check for 10/20 rather than overall, so I guess I wanna play those aswell, also considering that I play better than the avg player and my image will be hyper aggro, so I would like to have a pair more often as I will face more aggression back I would guess.

I´m guessing that many of these will be losers if played every time, but can be marginal winners if you select good spots for them. (K4s in CO fx.)

Suited connecters seem to do better than most people expect and suitedness in general seems more important than people think.


I haven´t included the SB raises yet, but will later as they will be more player dependant than the others and probably also will depend how aggro I am outside the blinds.


So now I´m looking forward to hear if this is way too loose as then I´d know that the right mix is atleast somewhere between this and the old one.

[MAxx]

Someone with a higher pfr% could prolly give you better direction... cuzz I havent gone near some of that stuff. I like the 44-66 utg Idea. I dont personally play 44... but I do well with 55. It actually doesnt seem that hard to play.

Often it will be heads up b/c of respect for your UTG raise. If a A or K flops you lead and opponent does have A or K, they will fold. IF you get played back at, you drop. If it is a low flop, well you own that too, unless told other wise. Bonus if you flop the straight draw. And when you flop a set and get action, it is priceless.

If you get multple callers and an ufavorable flop... easy check fold.

Oh and you take the blinds some and get weak blind resistance other times. Suchas BB calls pf raise and checkfolds flop.

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
cuzz I havent gone near some of that stuff

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you are welcome to join the experiment /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The QJo first in from button-2 is doing very well for me though, so I´m sure you can add that.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
If a A or K flops you lead and opponent does have A or K, they will fold.

[/ QUOTE ] i meant to say if they do not have A or K, of course.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, you are welcome to join the experiment

The QJo first in from button-2 is doing very well for me though, so I´m sure you can add that.


[/ QUOTE ]

HaHa. Let's see how you do first.

I think I will add a QJo and perhaps a few of the better suiteds that I have been missing, but I am not quite ready to jump off the deep-end yet... that's your job.