I think this is standard, yes?

[Entity]

My second hand at the table. Sometimes I bet this flop but with 6 players, I wanted to check and evaluate. This is pretty much standard checkraisery, no? How many of you are doing this?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>...

[PuckNPoker]

You are doing this to clear up your 9 outs (the card not the total of outs) and hopefully folding a better Jack? And cleaning up unpaired Aces, etc?

[toss]

I don't know if the pots big enough to try a checkraise. I would call, but I'm sure raising it probably better.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if the pots big enough to try a checkraise. I would call, but I'm sure raising it probably better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 4BB's is pretty darned big when I'm reasonably sure I have the best hand.

Rob

[sthief09]

- I would consider raising preflop since it's .5/1
- Betting that flop into 5 players is a pretty big mistake
- I would not raise the flop. if the pot were bigger or you had middle pair on a T9x board, that would be ok, but there is a K on the board and there's a bet and a caller already. I'd just call.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
How many of you are doing this?

[/ QUOTE ]
I use this line most of the times. Calling a bet from my left, raising one from my right. I think 5 players is little to much to bet into with middle pair decent kicker.

[toss]

You're pretty sure CO or Button don't have a King or a J with a better kicker?

[wax311]

This is how I've been approaching hands like this, so I sure hope it's right!

The pots big enough and your hand is good enough to continue, I'm pretty sure raising here to protect your hand is much better than calling.

[btspider]

hmmm.. is this a good board to do this on? rainbow, somewhat disjointed.. a bet and caller already.

i'd probably just call and draw.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if the pots big enough to try a checkraise. I would call, but I'm sure raising it probably better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 4BB's is pretty darned big when I'm reasonably sure I have the best hand.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you overestimate the amount you're ahead. the button doesn't have a K. that's fine. but against passive players, it's very possible someone checked top pair. the pot is also 6 ways, so it's less likely the CO is bluffing. if he has middle pair, his kicker is probably bigger than yours.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
- I would consider raising preflop since it's .5/1
- Betting that flop into 5 players is a pretty big mistake
- I would not raise the flop. if the pot were bigger or you had middle pair on a T9x board, that would be ok, but there is a K on the board and there's a bet and a caller already. I'd just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think preflop is a wash. I'd raise JTs.

I'd bet the flop into 3 but not into 5, and I agree.

At what point is the pot large enough to give this a shot? Seems like 8SB's is decent sized enough that it's worth the risk involved, considering I'll have the best hand a reasonable portion of the time. I dunno.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if the pots big enough to try a checkraise. I would call, but I'm sure raising it probably better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 4BB's is pretty darned big when I'm reasonably sure I have the best hand.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you overestimate the amount you're ahead. the button doesn't have a K. that's fine. but against passive players, it's very possible someone checked top pair. the pot is also 6 ways, so it's less likely the CO is bluffing. if he has middle pair, his kicker is probably bigger than yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may be a holdover from shorthanded play, but K-high broadway boards seem to be the most popular boards for late position players to bluff. Obviously he's less likely to bluff into 6 players with a complete bluff, but I think most average CO's would bet A5 here once it's checked to them.

Rob

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
At what point is the pot large enough to give this a shot? Seems like 8SB's is decent sized enough that it's worth the risk involved, considering I'll have the best hand a reasonable portion of the time. I dunno.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think these fools will be pretty passive with Kx or a stronger J and you'll just bet their hands for them. i'd like it more at 1/2, if you knew this opponent better, etc. either way, the button calling does put a damper on your equity.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At what point is the pot large enough to give this a shot? Seems like 8SB's is decent sized enough that it's worth the risk involved, considering I'll have the best hand a reasonable portion of the time. I dunno.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think these fools will be pretty passive with Kx or a stronger J and you'll just bet their hands for them. i'd like it more at 1/2, if you knew this opponent better, etc. either way, the button calling does put a damper on your equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that Button's call screws this up a bit for me. I'm not completely sure about this one.

Rob

[wax311]

I have to say that Entity's play here's how it should be done.

Simply put, betting out is bad.

Check-calling will not fold any weak draws that you want out of there (gutshot draw, low pair, ect.)

The pot is definately big enough not to fold. Check-raising has to be the best play. There's a good enough chance that he's actually ahead. There's a chance someone will fold a better hand than yours like JT.

I don't understand all the people suggesting to check-call here.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to say that Entity's play here's how it should be done.

Simply put, betting out is bad.

Check-calling will not fold any weak draws that you want out of there (gutshot draw, low pair, ect.)

The pot is definately big enough not to fold. Check-raising has to be the best play. There's a good enough chance that he's actually ahead. There's a chance someone will fold a better hand than yours like JT.

I don't understand all the people suggesting to check-call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

The suggestions for check-calling have merit too, mainly in that both the CO and the Button, who both have position on me for the remainder of the hand, have shown interest in the hand. That makes it more difficult for me when I don't improve on the turn, because I have to lead out and will often be betting their hands for them.

Rob

[rafct]

I would raise it, I dont see how calling can be good since I would want to protect what is possibly the best hand. Plus you have some weak draws for a flush and straight that would make the play even more reasonable.

[wax311]

[ QUOTE ]
The suggestions for check-calling have merit too, mainly in that both the CO and the Button, who both have position on me for the remainder of the hand, have shown interest in the hand. That makes it more difficult for me when I don't improve on the turn, because I have to lead out and will often be betting their hands for them.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you check-call, will you still check if unimproved on the turn? You can still check the turn after check-raising the flop. The only difference is that you invest one extra small bet into the pot with the hope of thinning out the field to improve your winning chances. You can still check the turn after the flop raise - check-call one bet one bet or check-fold a button raise or another overcard.

[jskills]

Perfectly standard. Obviously you hate it if he pops you back. He probably won't fold, but he won't fire at you with the K on the turn will he? Nice play.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Well if you check-call, will you still check if unimproved on the turn? You can still check the turn after check-raising the flop. The only difference is that you invest one extra small bet into the pot with the hope of thinning out the field to improve your winning chances. You can still check the turn after the flop raise - check-call one bet one bet or check-fold a button raise or another overcard.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you don't think you have the best hand, you are drawing.. and thus shouldn't have check raised the flop to begin with. you won't clean up enough outs to risk allowing CO to 3-bet the flop.. or to justify the extra SB.

[wax311]

[ QUOTE ]
if you don't think you have the best hand, you are drawing.. and thus shouldn't have check raised the flop to begin with. you won't clean up enough outs to risk allowing CO to 3-bet the flop.. or to justify the extra SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

There may not be many outs to clear, but there are three players to your left, and chances are at least one (maybe all three) will call one bet but not two with their gutshots, low pairs, ect. Investing one extra SB is worth saving a pot every now and then.

As for the chances that CO will 3-bet, it's not that big of a deal. First off, chances of him 3-betting are probably slim if he's passive along with the rest of the table. In the small percentage of times he 3-bets, you can call and then fold the turn unimproved. Say he 3-bets with two pair Kings and Jacks or a set. You loose 2SB from raising the flop instead of calling, but you are far more certain that CO holds a strong hand than you would be if you check-called the flop. If you had check-called the flop, you might call a turn bet from the CO because 1) you still think you're drawing live and 2) because you still think there's a chance you're ahead. In the check-raise case, you loose 1BB and fold on the turn. In the check-call case, you loose 1BB on the turn and you're still in the hand on the river, where you might call one more bet.

I'm not saying that the only hands CO would 3-bet have you drawing dead. If he's really aggressive, he'll 3-bet with a single pair of kings or a good draw. But in worst-case scenario's where you ARE drawing dead, you might be better off check-raising and then folding the turn after being 3-bet than if you had check-called the flop without knowing the strength of CO's hand.

[Entity]

I checkraised, everyone folded. I vin.

[sweetjazz]

That result is not standard at 0.5/1! Nice hand.

[waynethetrain]

I don't like raising 2nd pair into this many players when the overcard is paint. I think you are behind a large percentage of the time. Most of the time you are protecting someone elses pair of kings. Plus you could also get reraised. I would only consider this move if the pot was bigger. Then the smaller percentage of the time you are ahead will gain a lot more than you are losing when raising with the weaker hand.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like raising 2nd pair into this many players when the overcard is paint. I think you are behind a large percentage of the time. Most of the time you are protecting someone elses pair of kings. Plus you could also get reraised. I would only consider this move if the pot was bigger. Then the smaller percentage of the time you are ahead will gain a lot more than you are losing when raising with the weaker hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck.

I disagree that I'm protecting someone else's King more often than not. More often than not, I have the best hand. I'm still not sure if I have the best hand often enough to risk this much investment, but I think any comments about the pot not being big enough to try this aren't really true. The pot is 4BB, which is plenty big.

Rob

[OrianasDaad]

Looks fairly standard to me.

Calling is merited sometimes in these types of situations where the turn is going to either drastically help or hurt your hand.

My only worry is missing the turn. What's the line if the 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif hits there?