JTs...questions galore [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Harv72b

03-04-2005, 07:11 PM

My first 5/10 session. All I've figured out about SB so far is that he's a little loose preflop. CO looks decent & predictable, but falls in love with his hand & pays off too often. The table in general had been fairly aggressive, but not overly so.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB calls, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB raises, Hero calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB
Main Pot: 17 BB, between Hero, CO and SB.

Questions:
-Preflop...JTs seemed too good to fold, but the table was loose enough that I didn't think I'd buy any folding equity by raising it. Okay limp, even knowing that it'd probably be raised behind me?
-Do I have enough EV on average for the flop c/r? Hitting TP + gutshot + backdoor flush looked awesome at the time, but I wasn't sure how that stacked up against two opponents in hindsight.
-3-bet the river?

brettbrettr

03-04-2005, 07:18 PM

"-3-bet the river? "

Considering your read on the CO this seems like the right play. Assuming you split you gain an extra .5 BB from it.

I like the flop c/r line, lets CO define his hand. In this case sucks in the SB a bit, but it also seems that you're drawing so bringing him along doens't seem awful to me.

brettbrettr

03-04-2005, 08:50 PM

I'm sorry, and extra BB if you split, not half.

Yeknom58

03-04-2005, 09:27 PM

I like a bet on the flop better as I do not want to be 3-bet and if he raises and knocks out the SB that's probably a good thing.

On the river I see why you overcalled and I think I like it...the CO will likey fold to a 3 bet and the pot is probably going to be split so I think this probably maximizes your win here.

brettbrettr

03-04-2005, 09:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like a bet on the flop better as I do not want to be 3-bet and if he raises and knocks out the SB that's probably a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I think it tells you much less about what he's holding....

Fat Nicky

03-04-2005, 10:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
-Preflop...JTs seemed too good to fold, but the table was loose enough that I didn't think I'd buy any folding equity by raising it. Okay limp, even knowing that it'd probably be raised behind me?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the players left to act are generally loose, I don't see limping as being a big deal. Personally, if I'm first in the pot in MP1+, I like to come in with a raise. But, I can't see limping being a much of a mistake.

[ QUOTE ]
-Do I have enough EV on average for the flop c/r? Hitting TP + gutshot + backdoor flush looked awesome at the time, but I wasn't sure how that stacked up against two opponents in hindsight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I understand why you went for a c/r here. In your position relative to the pf raiser, I like betting out better.

[ QUOTE ]
-3-bet the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, I wouldn't be too scared of KJ.

SinCityGuy

03-04-2005, 10:09 PM

I would strongly advise against open limping in MP in the Party 5/10 games. You will frequently be calling a raise and playing out of position against one or two opponents (e.g. your posted hand).

Congratulations on hitting your straight.

Chris Daddy Cool

03-04-2005, 10:39 PM

after 3 folds i don't like openlimping here.

i don't like the flop c/r.

turn yeah.

i don't mind not 3-betting the river as its pretty obvious you're chopping at best and a 3-bet would just blow CO out of the hand.

brettbrettr

03-04-2005, 10:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet would just blow CO out of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

His read was that CO takes his hands too far.

Mike Gallo

03-04-2005, 10:49 PM

You can open raise with that hand from that position occasionaly.

Yeknom58

03-04-2005, 11:04 PM

"Why? I think it tells you much less about what he's holding...."

I don't think I want to pay this much for info that isn't very reliable...so lets say it comes low cards on the turn/river and it's heads up with you and the CO..do you fold because of this info?

Harv72b

03-04-2005, 11:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
His read was that CO takes his hands too far.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really wasn't sure if he'd call for 2 more, though. That played a bigger part in my decision than fear of a KJ (although that also occurred to me)

Harv72b

03-04-2005, 11:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure I understand why you went for a c/r here. In your position relative to the pf raiser, I like betting out better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of my reasoning was that if he was on just whiffed overcards, he might fold unimproved on the turn if I check/raised the flop. I'm really unsure about that, though, or even if I'd want him to based on the board.

My first instinct was that with my hand + draws I should have a greater than 33% equity against two opponents, and so I didn't want to bet & have a CO raise knock out SB. I also didn't want to just have one of those "I bet, 2 calls, I bet the turn, CO raises" sorta things...what do I do there? Even if CO was on an overpair, I didn't think he'd raise the turn after I c/r'd the flop (unless he caught his two outer).

Again, I don't know if I made the right play...that's just why I made it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Harv72b

03-04-2005, 11:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You can open raise with that hand from that position occasionaly.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of my favorite hands ever was when I raised JTs from UTG on a tight Stars 1/2 table, flopped the A high straight, and wound up getting berated for about 10 mins by a guy who cold-called preflop with QQ. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

PokerBob

03-05-2005, 12:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My first 5/10 session. All I've figured out about SB so far is that he's a little loose preflop. CO looks decent & predictable, but falls in love with his hand & pays off too often. The table in general had been fairly aggressive, but not overly so.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB calls, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB raises, Hero calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB
Main Pot: 17 BB, between Hero, CO and SB.

Questions:
-Preflop...JTs seemed too good to fold, but the table was loose enough that I didn't think I'd buy any folding equity by raising it. Okay limp, even knowing that it'd probably be raised behind me?
-Do I have enough EV on average for the flop c/r? Hitting TP + gutshot + backdoor flush looked awesome at the time, but I wasn't sure how that stacked up against two opponents in hindsight.
-3-bet the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not nuts about the pf limp, but I'm not crazy about raising this either. I almost think I fold. /images/graemlins/blush.gif I want a mulitway pot, or a short-handed one, and I don't know if I'll get either.

Bet the flop and let CO blow sb away.

You're probably chopping, but 3-bet the river.

Harv72b

03-05-2005, 12:58 AM

For those who're curious...

Results in white below: 
SB has 6d 7d (straight, ten high).
Hero has Jh Th (straight, queen high).
CO has Kh Ks (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 17 BB.

adamstewart

03-05-2005, 01:58 AM

Lead the flop.

3-bet the river.

Adam