Check my line here from BB [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Bizot

03-04-2005, 05:10 PM

Was i pumping this up a bit to much here or was this pretty standard?

no real strong reads here to help this out at all.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, MP2 calls, CO folds.

River: (11 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, MP2 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB

flopwell

03-04-2005, 05:15 PM

I guess PF was worth half a bet. I wouldn't 3 bet the flop, but I believe betting out on the turn was the right play. That's just my $.02

Bizot

03-04-2005, 05:18 PM

ya i suppose the 3 bet on the flop may have been a bit lagish.. 4 people is iffy. i bet out turn from OESD pickup obviously and flush draw still.

should have raised on river /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif jk

fluxrad

03-04-2005, 05:24 PM

Check and call the flop. If it's two bets back to you, fold it.

Isn't this rather straightforward?

davelin

03-04-2005, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check and call the flop. If it's two bets back to you, fold it.

Isn't this rather straightforward?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything you just said is wrong.

Bizot

03-04-2005, 05:27 PM

dude you didnt' seriously just say fold a 2nd nut flush draw did you? on the flop?

fluxrad

03-04-2005, 05:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
dude you didnt' seriously just say fold a 2nd nut flush draw did you? on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. right or wrong, they tell us n00bs to post more.

can someone go over the thinking on why one would bet out on this? is it pot equity?

topspin

03-04-2005, 05:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ya i suppose the 3 bet on the flop may have been a bit lagish.. 4 people is iffy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? You only need more than 2 people to call to show a profit. Once all 3 show they're willing to stay in, you should be happy to see the flop capped if possible.

Bizot

03-04-2005, 05:34 PM

ya dude you have a huge draw gotta get your money in there with everyone elses while they'll call if the 3rd to flush comes they wont call and will be more apt to fold.

topspin

03-04-2005, 05:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
can someone go over the thinking on why one would bet out on this? is it pot equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Your flush comes in 30%+ of the time by the river. Not only do you have odds to draw, but your equity is high enough such that every bet going into the flop is making you money.

bottomset

03-04-2005, 05:35 PM

preflop and flop are good

turn is thin you have 12outs to a straight or better, but the straight is 1card, and 2of the outs can make a /images/graemlins/spade.gifflush possible, in reality your hand is probably closer to 10outs than 12 .. I don't bet the turn

davelin

03-04-2005, 05:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dude you didnt' seriously just say fold a 2nd nut flush draw did you? on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. right or wrong, they tell us n00bs to post more.

can someone go over the thinking on why one would bet out on this? is it pot equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, sorry if I was harsh, but I find that's the quickest way to learn here. Yes, as someone expounded your equity is high enough to put bets in on the flop. FWIW though I don't 3-bet the flop.

fluxrad

03-04-2005, 05:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
dude you didnt' seriously just say fold a 2nd nut flush draw did you? on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what. I'm retarded. I just started to explain the math to my buddy and realized about 5 minutes too late that you're not 4:1 to make it by the river...

Note to self: Hold'em has a "river" - betting does not end on the turn.

RED_RAIN

03-04-2005, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
turn is thin you have 12outs to a straight or better, but the straight is 1card, and 2of the outs can make a flush possible, in reality your hand is probably closer to 10outs than 12 .. I don't bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrible. The fact that they may put you off the flush draw when they do hit is worth it, not only are you looking at a ton of outs.

Bizot

03-04-2005, 05:49 PM

sorry ddue i don't mean to rail you /images/graemlins/smile.gif if you arent quite sure how to play it just read what other people write to do and learn from it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

i was new once too and was a total tard about this stuff, you reading any books?

bottomset

03-04-2005, 05:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
turn is thin you have 12outs to a straight or better, but the straight is 1card, and 2of the outs can make a flush possible, in reality your hand is probably closer to 10outs than 12 .. I don't bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrible. The fact that they may put you off the flush draw when they do hit is worth it, not only are you looking at a ton of outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

well if you have all 12 outs(you Q,3outs are non-existant) you are a 2.83/1 underdog to hit with 3 opponents if they all come along it might be for value, another Q will be out there a fair amount of the time, 1 of the 3 opponents will often fold on the turn .. a bet here has very little chance of taking down the pot, and you need to hit to win

maybe it is wrong, but it definetly shows why position is so important in HE .. if you were in LP you could check safely behind here and see the river for free a lot of the time

Bizot

03-04-2005, 05:58 PM

any other card but a T and i would have checked there and the position is terrible which is why i hate the BB/SB /images/graemlins/smile.gif

i still say i have to bet if there is a chance for a backdoor flush here i need to charge them i can't give a free card. if a spade other than 9 or A comes i can easily fold it and if those come i either get paid off or i lose to a guy playing a hand he probably shoudln't have been drawing with.

either way i think its an easy turn bet.

fluxrad

03-04-2005, 06:00 PM

Bizot: I trust you were addressing me.

I just finished SSH and have read ITH. My problem is I still can't seem to get my brain around when to use things like equity and when, exactly, I need to be thinking about it vs. pot odds, etc. I assume it'll come with time (been playing on-line for about 3 months now).

As far as posting is concerned. Actually, this thread makes me want to post more. This is one of those examples where getting flamed is actually extremely helpful and will hopefully help someone else in my position.

RED_RAIN

03-04-2005, 06:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sorry ddue i don't mean to rail you /images/graemlins/smile.gif if you arent quite sure how to play it just read what other people write to do and learn from it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

i was new once too and was a total tard about this stuff, you reading any books?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this your attempt at trying to be funny?

Entity

03-04-2005, 06:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
sorry ddue i don't mean to rail you /images/graemlins/smile.gif if you arent quite sure how to play it just read what other people write to do and learn from it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

i was new once too and was a total tard about this stuff, you reading any books?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this your attempt at trying to be funny?

[/ QUOTE ]

He was responding to the other guy (fluxrad), even though he clicked reply to you.

Rob

wabe

03-04-2005, 06:04 PM

Why did you 3-bet the flop?

I think I check/call the turn and check/fold the river unimproved. A heart changes that up, though. A Q...not so much.

fluxrad

03-04-2005, 06:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You're right, sorry if I was harsh, but I find that's the quickest way to learn here. Yes, as someone expounded your equity is high enough to put bets in on the flop. FWIW though I don't 3-bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. You weren't harsh. I'm used to Fark and Kuro5hin.org so it's not "harsh" 'till you've involved my mom in the conversation somehow :P

2. Assuming this went to the flop 3-way. Is it still correct to bet? (My guess is not).

3. If it's 3-way and it's 2 bets back to you (pot odds of, say, 7:2 - is it correct to call (implied odds?).

Bizot

03-04-2005, 06:09 PM

ya sorry clicked the wrong one
redrain > bizot in knowledge of poker.

with 12 outs and people who are more than likely going to call due to the pot size why would you just check/call the turn? you are still risking giving the free card to 2 spades here.

Wetdog

03-04-2005, 06:09 PM

There is fold equity in the turn if it doesn't hit anyone else. Of course it could hit someone with AQ, Q9 or TT.

RED_RAIN

03-04-2005, 06:11 PM

Wow, okay, I guess you guys need it spelled out.

Look at the amount of outs we have.

2,4,5,6,7,8,9,T,A hearts
9,A spades
9,A clubs
9,A diamonds

The 9 and A of hearts are even better for us, because if someone has Q, they won't be able to fold and might even raise us.

I see 15 outs all helping us. How the hell isn't this a good bet with the amount of callers, not really caring if they call or fold.

Bizot

03-04-2005, 06:12 PM

anyone playing AQ this way i am happy to have it hit them. Also Q9 i have outs to either chop or crush him. Even with AQ i can take him out with a flush here.

davelin

03-04-2005, 06:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, okay, I guess you guys need it spelled out.

Look at the amount of outs we have.

2,4,5,6,7,8,9,T,A hearts
9,A spades
9,A clubs
9,A diamonds

The 9 and A of hearts are even better for us, because if someone has Q, they won't be able to fold and might even raise us.

I see 15 outs all helping us. How the hell isn't this a good bet with the amount of callers, not really caring if they call or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well with 15 outs we need everyone to call to make this a definite equity play. Doesn't seem like a sure play.

RED_RAIN

03-04-2005, 06:14 PM

Your first part of the sentence is good, the second is fearful thinking where we I think it changes those of us who go for maximize our BB/100.

SeeWillie

03-04-2005, 07:07 PM

Take my advice with a grain. Like Bizot, I was once new, but I am still a tard.

To answer your questions:

1. Your mama (jk)
2. yes, if you think all three will call. Your flush comes in 35% of the time - 35% pot equity - and you are putting 33% of the bets in the pot.
3. I think you forget pot odds when you have an equity edge. Push the edge. Obviously, be careful if board is paired you may be drawing dead to a flopped full house

Although, I wonder if any more experienced posters discount hero's pot equity in this particular hand because hero has 2nd nut flush draw.

Lastly, others may differ, but put down ITH and re-read SSH. Then read TOP. Rinse. Repeat. Study.

fluxrad

03-04-2005, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3. I think you forget pot odds when you have an equity edge. Push the edge. Obviously, be careful if board is paired you may be drawing dead to a flopped full house

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes sense.

cmwck

03-04-2005, 07:44 PM

It's actually quite simple. The flush draw situation is actually the easiest to understand and it comes up a lot.
Suppose you are looking at a flush draw on the flop. Then, using simple math and probability, we know that you are a 1.9:1 underdog to make your flush by the river. The general rule is, you are making money if 3 or more bets go into the pot for every one bet you put in, i.e. in a 3:1 ratio. Since 3:1 is a bigger ratio than 1.9:1, then value bets and raises make you money (Note that if only 2 bets go into the pot for every one bet you put in, thats a 2:1 ratio. But 2:1 is so close to 1.9:1 we consider this a break even play).

Put another way, your pot odds (3:1) are greater than your pot equity (1.9:1), so this is a money making play.

Now, here is why you should be happy to see the flop capped if you are getting 3:1 on your pot investment. Lets say, on the flop, you put in 4 small bets and 3 opponents put in 4 small bets each. Further, assume that you will not have to call any bets on the turn. Then, two times out of three you will not hit your flush and lose your flop investment of 4 small bets, for a total loss of 8 small bets. But, one time out of three you will hit your flush by the river and win 3x4=12 small bets . Therefore, your average profit by having the flop capped is 12-8=4 small bets.

Note that even if you do have to call bets on the turn, it can be shown that having the flop capped is still correct. Maybe someone else can do that /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-C.

bicyclekick

03-04-2005, 08:32 PM

I like it. Good hand.

If the T doesn't come on the turn, of course you're checking it. Checking it even though it didn't come wouldn't be criminal, but I like a bet as you did.

Sykes

03-04-2005, 08:40 PM

Fold pre-flop. Q3s is not worth a complete from sb with 3 other players.

Catt

03-04-2005, 09:34 PM

Your mother . . .

[ QUOTE ]
As far as posting is concerned. Actually, this thread makes me want to post more. This is one of those examples where getting flamed is actually extremely helpful and will hopefully help someone else in my position.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent attitude.

You really will learn a lot faster by engaging in the discussion, even when you end up spewing nonsense -- sometimes moreso when you spew nonsense so that others can explain in excrutiating detail to you, from 3 different perspectives, why you so royally screwed the pooch on a particular bit of advice.

It does also help others who lurk but don't post -- but not nearly as much as it helps you. Post more - especially responses to others hands / queries and less so your own hands / queries.

Your avatar still freaks me out though.

detruncate

03-04-2005, 09:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre-flop. Q3s is not worth a complete from sb with 3 other players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is. You're getting 7:1, and your implied odds are effectively doubled since you only have to put in 1/2 SB.

Bizot

03-04-2005, 09:59 PM

are you joking here? plz tell me you are... why would you fold that preflop

/edit
what he said above /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

RED_RAIN

03-04-2005, 10:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre-flop. Q3s is not worth a complete from sb with 3 other players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try any 2 suited.

sweetjazz

03-04-2005, 11:21 PM

Well played. I am not a huge fan of the complete in the SB, but it probably is a slightly profitable call, provided BB is not unusually aggressive. Those times when you end up putting in 1.5 SBs before the flop are highly non-profitable, so you should be pretty sure that BB will only raise with big hands. (Which is also good, because you will likely take him for a ride those few times you do flop big.)

Flop 3-bet is absolutely right, and it's a pretty big mistake not to 3-bet it. It costs ~ 1/3 of a SB.

On the turn, I would consider checking, mainly because I am hoping BB bets and I get two callers, so I can check-raise for value. Also, if it gets checked through, that's not horrible for you, as your pot equity is around 30% (9 cards make what is almost certainly the best hand; 6 cards make a top hand that might chop). You're not really giving a free card here. (Contrast that with holding KhQh on a board of Jh Th 4c 2d; then you should ram and jam the turn as much as possible and you don't want to give a "free card" even though you're technically behind at this point in all likelihood. In this situation, your pot equity is way too big.)

Also if BB bets the turn and I don't get the other two to call, I am smooth calling and deciding whether to go for a check-raise if I make my draw on the river. (That's probably a really bad idea against good competition, but I think it's something to be strongly considered at the microlimits. There's simply too many players who keep betting their hands, irrespective of what's on the board or how you've played so far.)

River fold is good.

Bizot

03-05-2005, 02:16 AM

i agree with all of it except that i would be giving a free card if it is checked through. i'd rather have my bet raised and watch them cold call, as i later found out they were a fish/calling station, then end up giving a free card for the possible back door.

3rdEye

03-05-2005, 02:17 AM

Goddamn, your avatar is distracting. Hilarious, but distracting.

sweetjazz

03-05-2005, 04:55 AM

It's not worth worrying about some backdooring a spades flush because:

(1) the pot is big enough you can't make it correct for someone with two spades to fold.
(2) you're not going to win unless you improve; if you hit your straight and that puts three to a flush on board, you still have a good chance to winning or chopping the pot, but you will have to figure out how aggressive to be on the river. and there's simply nothing you can do about this possibility on the turn.