Italian hostage freed in Iraq, then shot by US soldiers

[smudgex68]

In the shoulder; but they were apparently accurate enough to kill an Italian special services agent

[smudgex68]

Blimey

lmao (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4320111.stm)

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
"This unfortunate incident took place very near the airport: it was a shootout at a US checkpoint," Mr Berlusconi said.

"Some gunshots hit the car. One man was hit by a deadly bullet. We are petrified and astonished at this twist of fate."


[/ QUOTE ]

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
"About 2100 [1800 GMT], a patrol in western Baghdad observed the vehicle speeding towards their checkpoint and attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," it said in a statement.

"When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."

[/ QUOTE ]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4320111.stm

That's a good way to get yourself shot in Iraq. The Italians should have known better.

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
The Italians should have known better

[/ QUOTE ]

You've obviously never driven through Milan in rush hour

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
The US military in Baghdad confirmed that forces shot at a vehicle and said an investigation had been launched.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, I'm now really confident we'll get the real facts /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[BCPVP]

Baghdad is not Milan. The Italian driver all but assured that they'd be shot at. In fact, if it went down like it says in the BBC, than I would expect nothing less than those boys to fire on the car. That a person is dead and the journalist is wounded is entirely the driver's fault.

[The once and future king]

Surely they were reversing towards the checkpoint?

[smudgex68]

According to the Italian news this morning:
The US had been advised of their arrival at the airport
They had already passed thru other US checkpoints
They were 600 m from entering the airport
Over 100 rounds were fired into the car
The US soldiers did not subsequently approach the car and offer aid, thus the agent died from his wounds
Sgrena has stated they were not speeding

[smudgex68]

We'll have to wait for the report, but it seems like a tragic accident caused by frightened, poorly trained troops.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]

Baghdad is not Milan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeez dude, it was obviously said in jest.

Sense of humor. Find one.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
We'll have to wait for the report, but it seems like a tragic accident caused by frightened, poorly trained troops.

[/ QUOTE ]

This looks like an Italian screw up. The Italians will want to save face, but they foolishly threw themselves into a situation where the soldiers at the check point had to defend themselves against a possible car bombing.

Negotiating ransom payments will only invite more kidnappings of Italians and others.

Disrespecting check points in Iraq is very stupid. If you wanted to be shot, you should do what the Italians did in this case.

Americans greatly appreciate the help from Italians and others in Iraq, but you must act responsibly and think before doing something rash. Sadly, someone in the car failed to think rationally in this situation.

Finally, Sgrena is a communist, who's career rests on anti-Americanism. If she admitted that the Italians in the car made a stupid mistake, her career is over. This makes her an untrustworthy witness. (I could care less that she is an anti-American communist, except as it is relevant to her credibility as a witness)

Read about her:[ QUOTE ]
Giuliana Sgrena, though born after WW II, knows about resistance. She has lived its legacy through the memory of her family. Her 79-year-old father, pensioned railroad-worker Franco Sgrena, was an anti-fascist and partisan fighter in the Italian Resistance against Nazi-fascism in WW II and is still today a member and leader of the Communist Party. Her family lives in the modest, two-floored little house in the center of town, where she was born, Mesera (population:1,000), in the extreme north of Italy, near Domodossola, scene of bitter and bloody resistance struggles, close to where partisans arrested and executed Mussolini in 1945. All of Masera, learning of Giuliana's abduction, gathered around the family to console and to remember that Giuliana had continued their fight and had honored their past of resistance by opposing war, imperialism, aggression—above all by placing her profession at the service of the people.

She began early to be concerned about the world in the student movements of the sixties in Milan, which were the strongest in Italy. She faced police clubs at sit-down protests opposing the installation of Pershing and Cruise missiles in US military bases in Italy. She joined Il Manifesto, and reported from some of the most dangerous places on earth, hiding the reality of her personal danger behind words that highlighted the danger that threatened others. link (http://www.onlinejournal.com/Media/021205Bohne/021205bohne.html)


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[Broken Glass Can]

Half a million march in Rome (http://www.workers.org/world/2005/italy-0303/)

quotes:


The demonstrators also called for the freeing of Giuliana Sgrena, a journalist for the independent pro-communist daily "Il Manifesto," and other hostages. Sgrena is a long-time leader of the feminist and anti-war movements in Italy. The others include journalist Florence Aubenas for the French paper "Libération" and her interpreter, Hussein Al Saadi.



They called for an end to the criminal occupation of Iraq and the immediate withdrawal of all Italian and other Western troops. Other demonstrators carried blow-ups of photos taken by Sgrena during her reporting in Iraq over the last two years of the countless civilian victims of the U.S. war, including the many young children who are victims of U.S. cluster bombs.

[zaxx19]

They called for an end to the criminal occupation of Iraq and the immediate withdrawal of all Italian and other Western troops. Other demonstrators carried blow-ups of photos taken by Sgrena during her reporting in Iraq over the last two years of the countless civilian victims of the U.S. war, including the many young children who are victims of U.S. cluster bombs.

Blah Blah Blah...this is the country where it is virtually impossible to fire anyone and the population growth of native Italians is like -.3% correct.

Seems like those half a million should be worrying about more pressing matters than the occassional Iraqi child getting killed.

Of course they wont though they will continue to live in their liberal cocoon of indifference to reality...and soon they too will be assimilated by the worldwide Umma. Oh well good riddance.

[smudgex68]

The car wasn't shot at a checkpoint.

They were shot by an armored patrol. All bullet holes are on the right hand side of the car, not the front.

The week before an armored patrol also killed 5 innocent civilians on the same road.

The Italian government is requesting the names of the soldiers so they can be charged with murder.

However, everyone expects the usual cover-up. A good example was the US jet fighter in the NATO base in north Italy that tried to fly under a cable car, hit the cable and 40 people were crushed to death. The US quickly got them out of Italy and "lost" the on-board video.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
The car wasn't shot at a checkpoint.


[/ QUOTE ]

excerpt from Washington Post: (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9656-2005Mar5.html)

A few hours later, a statement from the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division in Baghdad said troops fired at a speeding car that "refused to stop at a checkpoint."

The statement said soldiers with the 3rd Infantry "killed one civilian and wounded two others when their vehicle traveling at high speeds refused to stop at a check point here today. About 9:00 pm, a patrol in western Baghdad observed the vehicle speeding towards their checkpoint and attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car. When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."

The statement did not explain how bullets fired into the engine block hit the passengers. It said the surviving intelligence agent "was treated by Army medics on the scene but refused medical evacuation for further assistance."

Finally, a State Department official in Washington said the Italians did not tell either the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad or U.S. military commanders about Sgrena's release, even though a U.S. hostage coordinator had been working closely with them on the case.

The incident took place at Checkpoint 504-Camp Victory, near the Baghdad airport, the official said. The airport road has been the scene of numerous ambushes and car bombings. In addition, U.S. troops have fired in the past on cars approaching checkpoints in Iraq out of fear they might be carrying suicide bombers.

<font color="red"> The Italian government has a PR nightmare to handle. I would not accept all statements at face value.

To say "they were not at a checkpoint" is spin, we deserve better from you. If the Americans wanted to kill the people in the car, they would all be dead. The survivors owe their lives to the restraint of the soldiers who had reasonable cause to stop a potential car bomber.</font>

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
This looks like an Italian screw up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your point about paying ransoms, and yes, the journalist was a communist. However, the agent shot was one of the leading secret service heads and had been in Baghad many times - he wouldn't drive fast towards a US checkpoint.

Also, based on the many other cases of accidental shootings of civilians by frightened US troops, it may be more likely a US screw-up, and probably they're not that worried about saving face.

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
A few hours later, a statement from the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division in Baghdad said troops fired at a speeding car that "refused to stop at a checkpoint."



Finally, a State Department official in Washington said the Italians did not tell either the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad or U.S. military commanders about Sgrena's release, even though a U.S. hostage coordinator had been working closely with them on the case.


[/ QUOTE ]

Both these statements now appear to be false

[Broken Glass Can]

Can you provide sources?

I've seen only the quote from Sgrena claiming that they were not speeding. Of course, "speeding" is in the eye of the beholder.

This quote from her seems pretty vague and clueless:
``It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol that started shooting after pointing some lights in our direction,'' the Ansa news agency cited Sgrena as telling the prosecutors. ``We hadn't previously encountered any checkpoint and we didn't understand where the shots came from.''

[smudgex68]

I think we'll have to wait until the two other agents who were wounded give details of the exact events.

However, the Prime Minister has stated that the US were informed, although it appears this mobile patrol probably did not have this information.

The original story, "speeding past a checkpoint" from the Baghad commander, is now being described by Bush as a tragic accident

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]


The original story, "speeding past a checkpoint" from the Baghad commander, is now being described by Bush as a tragic accident

[/ QUOTE ]

Either way (speeding or not), it is a tragic accident likely due to a lack of communication, but to blame soldiers on the ground and cry "murder" is caving in to the leftists in the Italian political scene. As I said before, if they wanted the people in the car dead, they would ALL be dead.

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
As I said before, if they wanted the people in the car dead, they would ALL be dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that any idea by the left that this was a plot to kill a left-wing journalist is ridiculous.

And I'm sure they could have killed all if they wanted, just killing one and wounding the other 3 takes a lot of skill (especially as they originally said they were firing at the motor block to stop the vehicle).

It does make you wonder though how many Iraqis experience a similar fate of which we are unaware.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
According to the Italian news this morning:
The US had been advised of their arrival at the airport
They had already passed thru other US checkpoints
They were 600 m from entering the airport
Over 100 rounds were fired into the car
The US soldiers did not subsequently approach the car and offer aid, thus the agent died from his wounds
Sgrena has stated they were not speeding

[/ QUOTE ]
1) Had the individual soldiers been made aware, or was it just a message to the State Dept, etc?
2) What difference does it make whether they'd been passed through other checkpoints? If you speed towards a checkpoint or patrol, I don't think the soldiers have enough time to play telephone tag to find out if it's friendly or not.
3)Distance to the airport is irrelevant. Driving towards a U.S. military patrol/checkpoint w/out identifying yourself is asking for trouble.
4)100 rounds? Sounds a little high. That's about 5 guys emptying their M16s into a car. Nonetheless, I'd hope that we wouldn't get thrifty with bullets when you think your life is in danger.
5) I would hope that the soldiers would NOT approach the car. Assuming they were trying to stop the car instead of kill everyone inside of it, what sense does it make to waltz over there and get blown up by whoever's got their finger on the button?! DUH!
6) I don't know how credible the journalist is. She's probably a little shaken from the event and I'm sure she's not going to admit that they were being reckless and speeding. I trust our boys over some commie journalist.

And it makes no sense for us to want to execute civilians allies. Why would we try and scare off allies?


And thatpfunk, I knew he was kidding. But it's hard to laugh about someone being killed and several people being wounded.

[Broken Glass Can]

<font color="red"> No surprise that Sgrena has gone down this road. Politics means more to this communist "journalist" than the truth. </font>


Sgrena has suggested US troops deliberately tried to kill her (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4323361.stm)

Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena has suggested US troops deliberately tried to kill her moments after she was released by her kidnappers in Baghdad.
Ms Sgrena, writing in her left-wing newspaper Il Manifesto, described how her car came "under a rain of fire".

At that moment, she said she recalled her captors' words that some Americans "don't want you to go back".

The US military, who said troops fired on the speeding car after it failed to stop, has opened a full investigation.

A top Italian secret service agent, Nicola Calipari, died in the incident as he shielded Ms Sgrena from the gunshots.

He had led the efforts to negotiate the release of the correspondent, held captive in Iraq for more than a month.

The body of Mr Calipari, who is being treated as a national hero, is lying in state in an imposing monument in the centre of Rome before a state funeral on Monday.

The incident in Baghdad threatens to have continuing political fallout in Rome, says our correspondent there David Willey.

Pressure will grow on Italy's Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, a staunch ally of US President George W Bush, to reconsider the wisdom of keeping on Italian peacekeepers in Iraq, our correspondent says.

Already, the Italian foreign ministry has warned all Italian nationals to avoid travel to Iraq.

Sgrena's account

Details remain unclear about exactly what happened as the car carrying the Italian journalist, Calipari and two other agents made its journey towards Baghdad's airport late on Friday.

The US military says that the car was speeding as it approached a checkpoint and that soldiers used hand signals, flashed lights, and fired warning shots in an attempt to stop it, before opening fire.

In her account for Il Manifesto, Ms Sgrena said the kidnappers had released her willingly.

When she got in the car, Calipari took off her blindfold and was "an avalanche of friendly phrases, jokes".

"Nicola Calipari was seated at my side. The driver had spoken twice to the embassy and to Italy that we were on our way to the airport that I knew was saturated with American troops. We were less than a kilometre they told me... when... I remember there was shooting.

"The driver began screaming that we were Italian, 'We're Italian! We're Italian!'"

Ms Sgrena has said the car was not going particularly fast.

Upon her release, she said, "They [the kidnappers] said they were committed to releasing me, but that I had to be careful 'because there are Americans who don't want you to go back'."

In another interview with Sky Italia TV, she said it was possible the soldiers had targeted her because Washington opposed the policy of negotiating with kidnappers.

"Everyone knows that the Americans do not like negotiations to free hostages, and because of this I don't see why I should exclude the possibility of me having been the target," she said.

She said she did not know if a ransom was paid for her release - a policy the US does not approve either.

Ms Sgrena was abducted on 4 February, and later appeared in a video begging for help and urging foreign troops to leave Iraq.

Much of the country was opposed to the US-led war in Iraq and the government's decision to send 3,000 Italian troops to Iraq.

[BCPVP]

If we wanted her dead, she'd be dead.

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
I trust our boys over some commie journalist.


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I don't doubt the courage of many US soldiers in Iraq, for which we should be thankful. However, with now over 50% reservists, non-professional soldiers these events are likely to be more common, minaly affecting the innocent Iraqi civilian population. Better command and training are desperately needed for the US troops out there facing these hostile conditions.

Reception for the hero saving a woman's life after being fired on by panicking US troops (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4323583.stm)

[mojorisin24]

[ QUOTE ]
According to the Italian news this morning:
The US had been advised of their arrival at the airport
They had already passed thru other US checkpoints
They were 600 m from entering the airport
Over 100 rounds were fired into the car
The US soldiers did not subsequently approach the car and offer aid, thus the agent died from his wounds
Sgrena has stated they were not speeding

[/ QUOTE ]

1. This is Iraq, where one of our enemies main weapons is VBIED's (vehicle-borne improvised explosive devices). Speeding or not, all vehicles MUST stop when instructed by US forces. Any failure to do so is considered a threat, and force protection allows that spraying the car's engine block with machine gun fire is the appropriate action to take.

2. The agent in the car died because he was shot in the temple and killed instantly, not because US forces did not approach the car fast enough to offer aid.

3. Sgrena stating they were not speeding is irrelevant. Her memory of what happened could be be almost entirely different after suffering the type of trauma she has.

And regardless of how many checkpoints they had already passed through, the bottom line is that they did not follow correct protocol when approaching this particular one. US troops do not shoot randomly at cars unless provoked, and perhaps most telling is that this was the only civilian-casualty incident reported that day from the checkpoint. Logic dictates that the Italians' car was breaking the rules, and in a war-zone, that'll get you killed.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
And thatpfunk, I knew he was kidding. But it's hard to laugh about someone being killed and several people being wounded.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you had no problem making fun of Ted Kennedy and drunk driving? How ironic... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[BCPVP]

One thing you should know about comedy is that for the humor to be seen in a tradegy, there usually needs to be a span of time between. People can make jokes like, "So besides that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?" know, but right after he was shot, it wouldn't have been funny. Far more time has elapsed since Ted Kennedy's accident than has this accident.

[mojorisin24]

The road you speak of is the connecting highway from Baghdad to the main airport, without question the most dangerous roadway in Iraq. American troops are expected to be more aggressive than usual in such a battle climate.

[smudgex68]

From The Independent newspaper this morning. Not sure where they got all this information from

[ QUOTE ]
The story began early on Friday afternoon when Mr Calipari and his team of military intelligence agents arrived in Baghdad from Abu Dhabi. After weeks of haggling, the ransom for Ms Sgrena had finally been agreed: at least $6m (£3.1m), according to the Italian press, and perhaps as much as $8m, had been handed over. The time and place for the release was settled.

Italy is well aware that its habit of paying large sums to secure the release of its nationals is disapproved of by the Americans and British. All negotiations are therefore carried on in secret. But at Baghdad airport Mr Calipari explained at the US headquarters what his team had come to do. It was arranged that an American colonel would be on hand at the airport when Ms Sgrena arrived for her flight back to Italy. By the time the team had rented a four-wheel drive it was already 5pm.

At 8.20pm, Mr Calipari's team reached the rendezvous on the outskirts of Baghdad. The vehicle they were looking for was there. Ms Sgrena's abductors had left her blindfolded in the back of the car. "I'm a friend of Pier and Gabriele," Mr Calipari said, naming Ms Sgrena's partner and editor. The 57-year-old journalist was a bundle of tension as they got her into their vehicle and left for the airport.

By now it was dark and pouring with rain. Baghdad is far too dangerous for people to go out after dark without excellent reason, and all scheduled flights had left. But the Italians decided that, with their plane waiting on the Tarmac, it was better to get Ms Sgrena home without delay.

They passed two American checkpoints along the airport road without incident and were 700 metres or so from the airport building. The road narrowed to a single, one-way lane and took a 90-degree turn. The car was going slowly now, approaching the end of the journey.

"At last I felt safe," Ms Sgrena said. "We had nearly arrived in an area under American control, an area more or less friendly, even if it was still unsettled."

Then, turning the corner, they found their progress baulked by an American tank. They were blinded by a powerful light. "Without any warning, any signal, we were bombarded with a shower of bullets," Ms Sgrena said. "The tank was firing on us, our car was riddled with bullets. Nicola tried to protect me, then his body slumped on top of mine, I heard his death rattle, then I felt a pain but I couldn't tell where I had been hit. Those who had fired came up to the car, but before I was taken to the American hospital there was an interminable wait, it's hard to know how long I was lying there wounded but perhaps it was 20 minutes."



[/ QUOTE ]

Independent story (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=617569)

[zaxx19]

Wait so I want to make sure Ive got the story right: lefT wing European media outlets are reporting that a communist anti-american journalist alleges that the US military acted improperly....

YYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNN....... .

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
US troops do not shoot randomly at cars unless provoked

[/ QUOTE ]

From the BBC today:

[ QUOTE ]
In a separate development on Monday, the Bulgarian Defence Minister, Nikolai Svinarov, announced that a Bulgarian soldier killed last week in Iraq was the victim of "friendly fire".

"Someone started shooting at our patrol from the west, and in the same direction... there was a unit from the US army," Mr Svinarov told a press conference.


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[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
lefT wing European media outlets

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I've never heard of The Independent being described as left wing?

[zaxx19]

Ok drop the first part...

YAWWWWWWN

[nicky g]

"I've never heard of The Independent being described as left wing? "

I have. Its senior Middle East correspondent, Robert Fisk, is definitely to the left.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
After weeks of haggling, the ransom for Ms Sgrena had finally been agreed: at least $6m (£3.1m), according to the Italian press, and perhaps as much as $8m, had been handed over.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wonderful. Now our boys are being put at more risk because of Italian money. I think they should read the story "If you give a mouse a cookie..." Thanks Italians!/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Then, turning the corner, they found their progress baulked by an American tank. They were blinded by a powerful light. "Without any warning, any signal, we were bombarded with a shower of bullets," Ms Sgrena said. "The tank was firing on us, our car was riddled with bullets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Parts of this add up and others don't. Firstly, this partly coincides with the U.S. military's story of using lights and shots to warn the car. What constitutes a warning for Ms Sgrena may not be the same as what constitutes a U.S. military patrol warning. And of course, the mental condition of Ms Sgrena is probably not the most lucid and rational of those present. Then she says that a tank was firing on their car. What? If a tank had fired at their car, even with it's .50 cal, the occupants of that car would all be dead. Besides that, there's just no reason to put your career and possibly your life at risk to fire on a car that's not posing a danger.

That's the reason why I'm suspicious of Sgrena's story. There's no reason for the U.S. to try and kill her and every reason to let a hostage be retrieved without incident.