Toying with all-in tournament theory...

[Pete Chestna]

I have been thinking about all-in situations during tournaments. My starting assumption is that the correct play is to move-in in the following example so I would rather avoid that debate. Let's also assume that I have enough chips to push my opponent off the hand after the flop in scenario 1b. Assume that there are only 2 players on the flop.

Scenario 1a:
I look down to see JJ. I move in. I get called by AK. The board comes 4 9 2 - 5 - A. I'm busted out of the tournament, but feel good that I got my money in with the best of it. They rivered me...that's poker.

Scenario 1b (same hand with same eventual board):
I look down and see JJ. I call (probably for a raise from the AK). The board comes 4 9 2 on the flop. I move in and the AK folds. I accumulate chips and live on, though I may have missed a chance to double through.

Clearly, given the two outcome, the "best" way to play this specific hand is scenario 1b, since I live to play another hand. In scenario 1a, not only have I payed to see all 5 cards, but I have allowed my opponent to pay for them as well and it ends up knocking me out. In scenario 1b, I am making the AK pay for a long-shot after the flop and get much more leverage against the hand forcing AK out of the pot.

You can't know how the hand will play out so my quandry is: When should you play all-in (mentally commit yourself), but delay the actual move until the flop? Does taking the chance that the flop will give me more leverage justify delaying my move-in? Even if scare cards come, I may be commited to the pot and have to move-in no matter what. There are a ton of angles that can be considered. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts...

Pete

[TStoneMBD]

one thing that you are forgetting to consider is that if you limp in with JJ, AK will raise and you will be forced to go allin preflop anyway.

[jackdaniels]

When you move all in you either want your opponent to call or want your opponent to fold (you don't with JJ). You have to ask yourself how much folding equity you have - meaning, what are the chances that my opponent will fold to my pre flop push? If the answer is "quite likely" then you push pre-flop. If the answer is "not likely" - you wait to see the flop and then execute a "stop n go" where you push all your chips in on the flop hoping your opponent missed it. This is a pretty basic explanation - but you should get the general idea.

Welcome to the boards.

[mostsmooth]

what are you trying to accomplish with your push? give yourself less chance of busting? or better chance to steal a few chips?
im relatively new to tourneys, but in general and not accounting for any specific factors, heads up,id say the worse youre hand the more inclined you should be to push preflop,assuming you have your heart set on pushing either preflop or on the flop(was that incredibly obvious or do i have a long way to go in my tourney journey? /images/graemlins/cool.gif)

[Pete Chestna]

The point was that in the scenario if I push pre-flop, I would get called but lose on the river. If I wait until the flop (with this specific board), I could win the pot by pushing in since the AK would have nothing but two overs. At that point, the AK is a huge dog to my pair and I get good leverage to get them off the pot.

It is two ways to play the same hand with very different outcomes. I was just trying to see what people that were considerations when deciding which strategy to employ. Read over what JackDaniels had to say in his response.

[Pete Chestna]

That's great advice. Thanks.

Of course the big down side to playing the hand that way is that I am missing a chance to double through should the jacks hold up. Statistically I should push pre-flop, but in practice I have been knocked out just out of the money too many times with this scenario. So depending on how close to the money I am, I may try this more conservative approach on occation.

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]

Scenario 1a:
I look down to see JJ. I move in. I get called by AK. The board comes 4 9 2 - 5 - A. I'm busted out of the tournament, but feel good that I got my money in with the best of it. They rivered me...that's poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

he didn't "river" you.. he won a 47% shot (or whatever it is). You only look at it as a river, if you got most or all your chips in on the turn.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

THe problem is, you're asking your question in a vacuum. In neither example do you give any relevant information: stack sizes, blinds relative to stack size, how far from the money, table texture, profile of opponent. Without this information, your decision on each hand could either be correct or horribly wrong. Your cards and what your opponent bet are only a small portion of the information needed to analyze the drcision.

[VagabondJim]

It seems to me that your intent, for that hand, is as much a deciding factor hear as anything else.

Are you looking to steal the blinds and a few bets pre-flop (i.e., not milk things for value)? Or, are you hoping to double up and/or knock out an opponent since you presumably have a stronger hand at he moment?

If the former, and if you are willing to risk everything, then pre-flop would certainly make sense. If you are trying to build a big stack off the hand it's useless. How many times do you see people go all-in preflop to get nothing but two tiny blinds? And how many of those times would you say the person got value for their big cards?

All-in has become a macho thing for a lot of new players (thanks to TV exposure of the game). It's a very exploitable error on their part: fold when faced with it unless you're loaded; when you are strong you can frequently manipulate them into going all-in first so that the strength of your hand is hidden and others will call too leading to a very healthy pot for you.

Cheers,

J.A.K