I don't get group buys - help me understand

[BuyPokerChips]

I just don't get it. I mean I understand the underlying concept of pooling purchasing power to get a volume discount. That's a straight-forward concept. What I don't get is:

<ul type="square"> What the motivation is for the group purchase organizer, and how it is any different than the motivation for your average chip retailer? I mean I know what they buy them for, and I know what they sell them for - it's still reselling chips, just for a different margin and different level of service. Why these posts about group buys allowed, and almost encouraged, while posts from established retailers shunned? [/list]

Furthermore, what I would really like to understand better is why people participate in these (if, infact, they even do). I understand it's grounded in enjoying a volume discount - no argument cheaper is better, all things considered. But how much cheaper is it on average? And does this discount justify any tradeoffs group buy praticipants must make?

So let's say you're buying 500 real clay chips in a group buy. Pricing varies, of course, but for example let's use the pricing of this current group buy (http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/forum/phpbb/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8900&amp;highlight=casino+chip+index) which would come to a little over $480 for 500 chips, shipped. Now, if we compare this to the average full retail price for a 500-chip set of high-end clay chips shipped (probably about $575), then there is a "Group Buy" savings of $95, or 16.5%. That's the savings. It's almost $100, but of course this is on a somewhat substantial purchase of say $500-$600.

So, my understanding then is that this discount is in exchange for the following trade-offs:

<ul type="square"> Paying cash upfront, perhaps a couple months in the case of a customized group buy Paying cash (or Paypal) to someone you know primarily by a made up nickname on a anonymous discussion group on the assumption that they will send you something down the road. In the event of a customized design - agreeing to buy 500 chips based on a graphic design mock-up that you have little idea of how will look on an actual chip. In the event of a customized design - agreeing to a concensus designed chip, or one designed by the group buy organizer, which you have little say over - so essentially it's not really a customized chip, just someone elses design that you get to approve upfront. In the event of a customized design - Not having the ability to add to your set or replace lost or damaged chips down the road because it's a one-time event. Assuming the risk that the final prices could change and you're already somewhat pot committed as you've already paid the bulk of the purchase price Assuming the risk of a fradulent group buy. Giving up any degree of customer service in the event that their is a problem with the merchandise and/or the shipment gets lost in transit Giving up the ability to return a purchase for a full refund Giving up the convenience and security protection provided by paying with a credit card [/list]

So to go thru with a group buy (which are not just on poker chip boards, but on any product-specific board on the web), participants are willing to make all of these trade-offs to save 10-20% (roughly 16.5% in this instance). This doesn't compute with me. Seems like I'm giving up a lot for a little. Maybe not. Apparently (If these things actually go thru to fruition), there are many people who are more than willing to make this trade-off. Maybe everything goes well and there are no problems. Maybe it's a complete scam. Who knows.

My primary concern is this seems like too good a con for the average confidence man to pass up. Even if the majority of the people doing this are above board, that existence makes room for the con men of the world to swoop in and make a quick buck.

Let's take TenPercenter's group buy (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1830091&amp;page=2&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1) of 100,000 Paulson chips "you read that right, 100,000 chip order", on this highly-regarded discussion board, for example. Now, no offense TenPercenter, I'm not accusing you in any way of running a scam. Rahter I'm just pointing out that if a confidence man was to run a scam, they could do something very similar to what you've done and perhaps walk away with 2 years salary for the average person on this 100,000 chip group buy alone, not to mention replicating this on every product-specific board on the Internet.

Some out there might be saying, wait, TenPercenter already did at least one group buy (on the Pharoah's Club Chipco) and everyone got their chips just fine. Could be, but I don't really even have any concrete information confirming this even went thru successful, but let's assume it did. So there's no risk right? He's proved himself trustful. Or you could take the perspective that it was just the first step in a long con, one that could really bilk a bunch of people our of some cash, like a 100,000 chip order. After all, why would he organize a 2nd group buy when he already has his perfect chip set from the first buy. Who needs two different sets of chips?

Disclaimer - Of course, I'm a poker chip retailer, so reading this you might be thinking I'm just trying to cast doubt on the legitimacy of group buys to boost my business. You're going to have to trust me on this one, but that's not really it. What I'm trying to figure out is what the motivations are for joining a group buy. I'm in the business of solving problems for consumers looking for gaming supplies. What I'm trying to figure out is if there is a large customer base out there who by the act of participating in group buys is actually screaming:

"HEY, we're willing to make a lot of concessions for a 10-20% discount - including revoking our rights to return an item or get a refund of any kind, including our ability to pay with a credit card, including paying 2 months in advance, including revoking our claim to any form of customer service, including assuming the risk of a last minute price change after we've already paid 2 months in advance, including assuming the risks and hassles of dealing with UPS on any items lost in transit".

If that is indeed the reality, then poker chip retailers (including my company), need to recognize this consumer need and meet it with a solution. That's why I'm posting.

[Cassius]

The concessions are made for a 10-20% discount on UNIQUE high quality chips, that in many cases noone else has the ability to buy. Those who participate DO have a say and can give their opinions on the makeup, and generally whatever company (say Chipco) DOES give real sample and real mock-ups, so there isn't some mystery about how these chips are going to look. Additionally, if you don't like the design, by all means don't get them.

The lure of a group buy is to get an otherwise unique (if not personally custom, certainly very custom in the realm of available poker chips) set of chips that are of high quality and impeccible design - as the design of most chips out there is simply lacking - and if one is going to spend ~ $1 a chip, you want the best design out there, and this can definitely come from a group buy of custom designed chips.

[BuyPokerChips]

Thanks for the input.

So is it primarily the unique nature that is appealing? I can see this for chip security so no one sneaks in chips to a private game, but if there are other chips out how secure is it really? If the uniqueness is the draw, at what point is it no longer considered "Unique"? 5000, 10,000, or 100,000 like in TenPercenter's group buy?

Questions:

1) Is the uniqueness more important that the savings?
2) It seems that you feel chip design is really lacking in the consumer world. What design elements do you (and others) really look for?
3) Do you have any concerns about being scammed in a group buy?

[meat whistle]

I agree with Cassius. I found this site after buying Dan Harringtons book. It happens I was also looking for nice looking poker chips. I have learned more about chips from this forum then I could ever have imagined. I was going to by a set from a local supplier but after seeing what options are out there I changed my mind as every site seems to offer the same style but the pricing differences are what amazes me for the same chip set. It makes me wonder if some of these dealers are just drop shipping. I would be all for a group by if I like the design as I would be getting high quality chips that are unique.

[rickw]

For me, the main point is the quality of design, followed by the uniqueness factor. It's nice to get a little bit of a discount also, but that's not my main concern.

I participated in the second round of the Egyptian chipco group buy. There was a lot of collaboration on the design process and the end product was pretty great. I do think there is a group of chip consumers who are not satisfied with the current commercial offerings. Look at the new James Bond paulsons for example. While the Paulsons are great chips, who did they talk to when they came up with the inlay? My guess is that the current Paulson design project being run by TenPercenter will run circles around the James Bond chips by the time it is done

As to security, the ordering was handled through a chip merchant on the web (holdempokerchips.com) and there were no issues.

While it might be possible to set up a scam, escrows can be used or you could go through a merchant.

[ddollevoet]

I also believe that there is a significant savings in art charges when splitting the cost across all buyers (vs. your own custom purchase).

[toots]

[ QUOTE ]

1) Is the uniqueness more important that the savings?
2) It seems that you feel chip design is really lacking in the consumer world. What design elements do you (and others) really look for?
3) Do you have any concerns about being scammed in a group buy?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) For me, yeah. Not completely unique, but something a little more special than one more "James Bond" knock-off

2) Exceedingly lacking. This is where TenPercenter's ChipCo Egyptians shine. It is truly one of the prettiest sets of poker chips out there. I got samples (about 70) of these because they're so pretty that they trumped my extreme dislike of ChipCos.

Looking at the fantasy chips out there now, they all seem like variations on the "Viva Las Vegas" theme. Gambling motifs, fake casino names, Las Vegas references, all of which are unimaginative and leave me cold.

What elements do I look for? Something that makes the chip seem like some effort was put into it. Good, congruent art (rather than a random collection of gambling icons), and art that's congruent with the medium. The egyptians look good on ChipCo. It's conceivable that they could have also worked on a full-graphic Paulson or Blue Chip, but I think he's on a better idea with a simpler inlay design for traditional clay chips.

3) Some. On the recent TenPercenter group buy, he worked through a known chip vendor, so that certainly made me feel more comfortable, although he'd already established his good reputation with the first egyptians buy that he did himself.

[meat whistle]

[ QUOTE ]

Questions:

1) Is the uniqueness more important that the savings?
2) It seems that you feel chip design is really lacking in the consumer world. What design elements do you (and others) really look for?
3) Do you have any concerns about being scammed in a group buy?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the main stream consumer chip design is really lacking. Look at how many places are trying to cash in on the poker craze(wal-mart, target, etc.). I would like to see more options in edge spots. I think more recessed chip options would allow consumers to be able to cheaply customize their chips with labels. I bought the Nexgens as quick/cheap option until I find a clay chip that I like. I also don't like the metal inserts. The Nexgens have them and you can still tell but sound a little better than the dice/suited chips my friends have. I don't think most people are worried about security at their home games. If you have chips like the egyptians or custom clays they are very hard to dupe.

[toots]

Oh, and one other factor:

TenPercenter pulled a major coup on his second round of egyptians by including an oversized chip (the octagon) and a plaque. I get the impression that ChipCo doesn't want to do that too often, and that it was made possible largely by presenting them with a large enough order to make it worth their while.

[jojobinks]

uniqueness/security, and having 100k out there matters not a whit. 100k means there're 100-150 sets in the country. i can't imagine how many dice/suited/diamond chips there are in the US.

bp.com: i like the modern clays, and considered buying them. but not having a say in the inlay (which is not good) makes a big difference. and they just aren't paulsons.

where i was: i was fairly sure i was going to do pc.com, but didn't really have any idea what i wanted to do for design. then i got my paulson samples, and now i'm pretty sure i'm willing to give up some control for what i anticipate will be the best set available.

what i expect from the ten group buy:
-a unique set
-a beautiful design
-the best quality chip available
-safe financial transactions through holdempokerchips.com
-a price not more than most "off the rack" chips.

what's not to understand?

[RogerZBT]

Couple of random thoughts…

I think most people are interested in chips for themselves and the group-buy evolves from there in an attempt to get cheaper prices.

There are two or three threads involving group-buys at a time. How many advertising threads would there be if they were allowed? Also, the people running the group buys don't make profit on them.

I don't think security is the major issue in customized chips. I think it's getting chips you like. If I had bought a full set of either "the suits" or "the Egyptians" (I got sample sets of both) it would have been because I like the look of them.

I had little worry about being scammed (out of my $10) because they were using an established vendor.

Another major issue is that most people don't have the time or ability to put together their own unique custom chips and have them be so purdy. I've seen three designs on this board (Johnny5's being the third) that trump anything I'd ever be able to do.

[morglum_s]

It's pretty simple. Better product, better price. You seem to indicate that you are getting something less in service, but I don't see alot of people who have been involved in previous group buys complaining. If anything, the small group "atmosphere" leads to a sense of better service. As long as the finacial end is secure (either through escrow or a known storefront) there really is no downside in my opinion.

-m

[Mojo Tooth]

There is also a sexiness factor that the chips originated in the "community." The design, the discussion of tweaks and details. It's intangible but undeniable.

It short... It's l33t

[X-Files]

<font color="blue">I am seriously thinking about getting in on the new group buy from TenPecenter as long as the final design looks as good as I think it will. </font>

• Paying cash upfront, perhaps a couple months in the case of a customized group buy

<font color="blue">I do not have a problem with this. You should always check out all the information thoroughly.</font>

• Paying cash (or Paypal) to someone you know primarily by a made up nickname on a anonymous discussion group on the assumption that they will send you something down the road.

<font color="blue">This could happen with anyone you deal with on PayPal. Again, you should always check out all the information thoroughly.</font>

• In the event of a customized design - agreeing to buy 500 chips based on a graphic design mock-up that you have little idea of how will look on an actual chip.

<font color="blue">People are doing this now for the http://www.trademarkpoker.com/paulson.asp Paulson’s.</font>

• In the event of a customized design - agreeing to a consensus designed chip, or one designed by the group buy organizer, which you have little say over - so essentially it's not really a customized chip, just someone else’s design that you get to approve upfront.

<font color="blue">I guess this is the same as any chip you would by. Someone designed a chip and you like the design so you buy it. Here you get to at least give some input and in the end if you do not like it you can go elsewhere.</font>

• In the event of a customized design - Not having the ability to add to your set or replace lost or damaged chips down the road because it's a one-time event.

<font color="blue">This could be a possibility if it is a one time production run. But you would most likely know this ahead of time so you can plan ahead and order extras.</font>

• Assuming the risk that the final prices could change and you're already somewhat pot committed as you've already paid the bulk of the purchase price.

<font color="blue">Why would the price change? I guess a manufacturer could up the price on you but that would not normally happen if you had already agreed on a price. That would be like me ordering chips from you and then you would tell me that the chips are now $1.25 a chip instead of $1.00.</font>

• Assuming the risk of a fradulent group buy.

<font color="blue">There are scams everywhere. I guess you just need to use your better judgement.</font>

• Giving up any degree of customer service in the event that their is a problem with the merchandise and/or the shipment gets lost in transit

<font color="blue">So are you saying that if I ordered from you and you shipped USPS and I said the chips never arrived and you could not prove otherwise you would send another set out at your expense?</font>

• Giving up the ability to return a purchase for a full refund

<font color="blue">I would have to say you would know this fact up front so you know what you are getting into.</font>

• Giving up the convenience and security protection provided by paying with a credit card

<font color="blue">I guess it all depends on how the group buy was set up. </font>

My primary concern is this seems like too good a con for the average confidence man to pass up. Even if the majority of the people doing this are above board, that existence makes room for the con men of the world to swoop in and make a quick buck.

<font color="blue">Everyone that sells plastic chips and says “Casino Quality” and “Clay” is pulling off a con. Just a little prudence will solve this problem. I would have to say most people on this board are not idiots.</font>

"HEY, we're willing to make a lot of concessions for a 10-20% discount - including revoking our rights to return an item or get a refund of any kind, including our ability to pay with a credit card, including paying 2 months in advance, including revoking our claim to any form of customer service, including assuming the risk of a last minute price change after we've already paid 2 months in advance, including assuming the risks and hassles of dealing with UPS on any items lost in transit".

If that is indeed the reality, then poker chip retailers (including my company), need to recognize this consumer need and meet it with a solution. That's why I'm posting.

<font color="blue">Buying from any online retailer is a risk. You offer a product that was designed by someone in the hopes that a lot of people will like the design and purchase it. I think a group buy is like this only on a smaller scale. I did not participate in any of the group buys. I bought my chips on my own through pokerchips.com and even that was a scary proposition because you have no idea when they will ship. You bring up some good points. I think that group buys will happen as long as the manufacturers allow these types of orders.

You do bring up good points that everyone looking to get into a group buy should think about.

By the way I think the way the label and the recess on the James Bond Paulson's is horrible looking.</font>

[Cassius]

I think that the major problem is Question #2: The answer is a emphatic yes. Overly dramatic and gaudy themes with lots of color and cheesy clip art dominates the chip market (at least the cheap plastic ones) and when it comes to good quality chipco/paulson type chips, designs are few an far between.

It really comes down to aesthetics, Ten's Egyptians are some of the most eye-pleasing chips out there, regardless if you like the theme or not, none of the elements are over-played, the font is right, the spacing is good, just general graphic design staples aren't present in MANY of the designs out there - they just make me cringe, which can be disappointing because some of them are good ideas and themes, but the results are generally just painful.

Although as to design, I do like the Archetype chip a lot - the outside part with the demons and and edgespots is pretty much perfection, and the colors - pretty much orgasmic. A great example of good design - which next to noone out there has, unless someone organizes a group buy.

The main point of a group buy is that if noone does it (designs a poker chip) right, or to your standards or likes, do it yourself - and you're sure to get something you're happy with.

[morglum_s]

BPC;

Also lemme throw the question back at you. Looking at your site it looks like stock dual-edge clays go for about $1.10 to 1.30 a piece depending on the size of the order. I personally like the design on these, but in all fairness it is pretty generic.

Now as a consumer I can get custom clay chips at around $1.00 a piece (+any color/art fees) from a couple places. I can choose the color, edge spots, and inlay, and get something I really like... but have to wait.

If I go in on a group buy I can get a "group-designed" chip that is much nicer looking for $.90 or less a piece (again if I am willing to wait.) I may be taking on some risk if the deal goes south or is fraudulent, but that can be mitigated easily with escrow etc.

From my perspective it seems like I am paying way more for something not nearly as nice, and the major trade off being the time spent waiting for the product. (And this last point isn't even the case for group buys of stock chips like the new Paulson JB's going on at another site.)

-m

[warewulf]

I think you would sell more chips if you took the word "Poker" off of them. That's what killed it for me anyway.

Regarding group buys, I participated in the suits buy and now waiting for the TR King custom King's Crown buy.

TR King -- In order to get custom colors, you have to buy 5000 chips to get a decent price (.85 cents / chip). He is not only doing the custom colors, but has agreed not to make this color combo ever again. At last count we're around 6000. These are going to be very secure chips since not many others will have them. I'm getting 550 of these so I would have had to pay about $1.50 each w/o the group buy. He might not have even done this set if the order was only 500 chips. Like other group buys, there is NO risk since we organized the colors, but all money goes directly to TR King.

The suits, similar to the last Egyptians buy, was done through holdempokerchips.com. Again, no risk. Instead of paying $1 / chip, we paid .82 cents. Significant for larger orders (I bought 1000).

[Johnny5]

Some of your concerns are valid, however I must say that regardless of your intentions, persuading people from participating in a group buy here, will only result in an increase to your bottom line.

4 Key Factors:

1) Quality
2) Design
3) Exclusivity
4) Price

1-3 have been covered well, but I think price is a factor that can’t be overlooked. In your example, you looked at a group buy consisting of 5,000 chips, and came up with 16.5%. In this example, the order would be 100,000 chips, and while there have been no numbers discussed, you could extrapolate a savings of AT LEAST 30% for those people ordering 1000 chips, and closer to 40% for those ordering 500 chips or less. That is pretty substantial to me.

Add to that the design, and uniqueness of the set, and you have a winner.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the business of solving problems for consumers looking for gaming supplies

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you not consult with consumers when designing your chips? From your site:

[ QUOTE ]
Our Modern Clay poker chip line was designed from the ground up over a five-month period to embody everything discriminating poker players’ want in a clay poker chip. We brought together seasoned gamblers, professional designers, and the family behind the most popular clay chip in the history of Vegas, the original Top Hat &amp; Cane Chip. Our task? Dream up the perfect clay poker chip and make it a reality. Out of that collaboration came the unique and purposely designed “Courts &amp; Numerals” mold, a new classic.


[/ QUOTE ]

Seems not.

As for the security aspect, several of us (including myself) have been burned dealing with (apparently safe/trustworthy) online retailers, so the increased risk of a group buy here is negligible.

J5

[puzzlemoney]

As somebody who has just completed design on a set of chips, I'm now looking at setup and art charges that will hike my per-chip cost up more than thirty cents per chip. If others want to get in on my design, I save over twenty cents per chip by doubling my order (assuming buyers share the art charges) from 2,500 to 5,000. It would take a huge order to get me down to the chip price that I'd pay for 2,500 chips without art charges.

As a retailer, you could help me by:

<ul type="square"> Lowering your prices, or giving price breaks at lower levels: Obviously, this is unfair to you and simply cuts into your profit, so this is no solution.
When you see a design that looks saleable, offer to waive art fees or simply buy more chips up front in exchange for the rights to sell them. This has been done by others here, as I understand it. Still, you're taking a risk here on chips that end up being not-so-popular. [/list]

(Obviously, I don't mean you, personally--you're not the guy I'm buying from; nor would I expect anyone that I am buying from to do this without a strong feeling that people will want to buy the chip.)

My real favorite solution:

The initial cost of setting up the chips for production is a huge percentage of a small (under 10,000 chip) order. If I could just buy the chips, a five or ten cent difference per chip would not be enough to make me participate in a group buy. But setup fees will end up jacking up my per-chip cost by as much as a third--so my "consumer need" is to find a way to reduce that. If you as a retailer set up a "group buy" bulletin board of sorts--where people could place orders on a specific design originated by a customer and you could then give discounts based on the volume of orders and handle the sale--you'd probably be a hero...

[Johnny5]

Good points.

When I ordered my custom Chipcos about a year ago, I had to stick to the same image and face wrap on each chip to keep the costs down to a reasonable (still ridiculously expensive!) level. A group buy is a good way to balance the cost/customization factors.

At the time, if I went directly through Chipco, and wanted each chip customized differently, the art charges alone would have been over 110% of the cost of the chips!!!

J5

[BuyPokerChips]

[ QUOTE ]
If you as a retailer set up a "group buy" bulletin board of sorts--where people could place orders on a specific design originated by a customer and you could then give discounts based on the volume of orders and handle the sale--you'd probably be a hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's what I'm talking about. That's a productive and innovative suggestion worth considering!

I'm interested in hearing more suggestions and/or recommendations of what you'd like to see poker chip retailers make available. Bring it on!

[Slow Play Ray]

Since I organized the Custom Kings Crown group buy, I thought I would offer you my 2¢ on the subject.

[ QUOTE ]
What the motivation is for the group purchase organizer, and how it is any different than the motivation for your average chip retailer?

[/ QUOTE ]

My motivation was SOLELY to get the chips I want at a price I like. After much sample collecting, I knew what I wanted, but it did not exist in a cost-effective form, so I came up with a way to make it happen. Your average chip retailer - no, every chip retailer - is in it for the money. Not that there is anything wrong with making a buck, but I stood to make absolutely nothing off of this deal, nor did I want or expect to.

[ QUOTE ]
Why these posts about group buys allowed, and almost encouraged, while posts from established retailers shunned?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the moderators do not allow free advertising. I will grant to you there is a lot of gray area here where retailers have stepped in on group buys to simplify things for the participants, but I would assume they have been allowed to slip under the radar because their help was solicited. In my case, nobody made any money off of these chips except for the manufacturer.

[ QUOTE ]
But how much cheaper is it on average?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the quantity I purchased, it was 52%. I doubt you can question the savings there.

In response to the point of potential fraudulence, I can only say let the buyer beware. Anyone stupid enough to entrust their hard-earned money to someone else w/o the use of an escrow account or some other protection deserves what they get. In my case, each individual paid the manufacturer directly, so there was no chance of being ripped off, or having the price change, for that matter.

[ QUOTE ]
"HEY, we're willing to make a lot of concessions for a 10-20% discount - including revoking our rights to return an item or get a refund of any kind, including our ability to pay with a credit card, including paying 2 months in advance, including revoking our claim to any form of customer service, including assuming the risk of a last minute price change after we've already paid 2 months in advance, including assuming the risks and hassles of dealing with UPS on any items lost in transit".

[/ QUOTE ]

To summarize, our savings were 52%, we can return defective items to the manufacturer for replacement, the customer service has been excellent to date, the price stayed firm to the original quote received 3 months before the order was placed, and many of us paid with a credit card with no additional fees and very fair shipping costs. Yes, we paid in advance, because like any savvy manufacturer, they required a deposit to proceed with the job.

I am extremely happy I went this route, but maybe that's just me.

Any questions?

[Fins]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you as a retailer set up a "group buy" bulletin board of sorts--where people could place orders on a specific design originated by a customer and you could then give discounts based on the volume of orders and handle the sale--you'd probably be a hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's what I'm talking about. That's a productive and innovative suggestion worth considering!

I'm interested in hearing more suggestions and/or recommendations of what you'd like to see poker chip retailers make available. Bring it on!

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice "Help me make money" thread not so nicely veiled as a "what were you thinking??" &amp; "I'm here to serve you" post. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

My motivation to consider a group buy would be primarily design &amp; cost.

Your prices are what made me decide to go custom (on my own not in a group buy). They're now a $1.05/chip but when I ordered mine seems it was more like $1.10+ basically for a little more I could have a personal set. Don't take this as your prices are too high... I'm sure they're priced per the market and they're a nice design so charge whatever but it plays a big factor in others searching for more affordable routes.

As far as the design having the ability to cutomize your chips is a significant factor... even if it's only a small part in the design, offering suggestions or following the process. If it takes a turn you're not happy with than wait and maybe a more appealing design will start up. Bring back the custom Paulson home market and you'd have a flood of chip buyers! Look at PC.com people are waiting 4 months! for chips that they are settling for... not what they'd prefer only what they prefer given what's available. They're great chips but if there was even a hint that they'd open up the edge spot options I bet some folks would have waited longer. I chose Chipcos because of my design but had pc.com offered multicolored spots (even just 2) I'd have redesigned and waited for clays. The point is if large group buys can make this happen the more popular they'll become.

I think there are several large gaps in the market.

More affordable customs:
The customizeable Dessert Sands are a good idea but the price is still to high IMO and the design is not to my tastes. There's another company I'll leave nameless but offers a more affordable route but their service is atrocious especially after sale/deposit. This could be improved upon.

Higher quality clays &amp; more customizeable options ideally Paulson... e.g. offer 2-3 diff inlays (denom &amp; non-denom) with double or single edge spot clors of your choice as a minimum.

There are plenty of retailers that contibute alot to this forum and are a great asset... it's the ones who are not here to help &amp; learn but hope to advertise &amp; sell that may keep you from getting the benifit of the doubt. A user name like "buypokerchips.com" certainly doesn't help matters. If your one of the former than welcome &amp; we could use your input, ideas, knowledge, humor etc...

- Fins

[jojobinks]

[ QUOTE ]

Nice "Help me make money" thread not so nicely veiled as a "what were you thinking??" &amp; "I'm here to serve you" post. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for saying it, fin. when i've done focus groups before, i've usually been paid for the effort.

[Spooky]

I know nothing about the chip production process, and my understanding is that most of it is some big secret. But from the way I picture the process it goes something like this:

The clay materials are squeezed out of a glorified playdough factory machine and cut off into approximate chip sized slices.

They are transfered to another machine where the inserts are added.

Then they are pressed/cooked into molds, coated in some way, inspected, packaged, and shipped.

------------------

Ok thats crude and probably inacurate.. but it will work for this discussion.

If there were a way to compile lists of orders from multiple customers who were interested in the same base/edge spot combinations. But with personalized inserts for each customer. Much of the re-tooling fees could be avoided.

You could work with customers to get their inserts to fit the standards, then they could add their names to the list for "Green w/Yellow-Red edge". When there was enough orders of that basic chip to make it worth the manufactures while the customer could get those chips.

Not all customers whould be interested in working this way, and you would need to do a lot of pre-work to have popular standard color combinations worked out. Not to mention working with the manufacturer to find the feasability of this method.


Anyway.. just an idea.

[Gizmata]

In the case of group for a stock chip you are just saving money. You can cut out the expenses of the middleman, his profit margin, and a shipping charge.

In the case of the 100k Paulsons there is a desire for a better chip that is different and special.

Any Joe can log on the internet and order the standard Paulsons or whatever quality of chip they want. The people who read here seem to be much more fanatical about their chips than the standard consumer.

With a custom buy of a high quality rare chip your only real chance is a group buy. If any retailer such as BPC COULD get authorization to sell them and designed a set, they would of course want to sell as many as possible. No one faults them on this, as they are there to make a living and want to be rewarded for the costs of such effort.

With a group buy, like the Paulsons', quantity of the minted chips will be limited to the original purchase. There is no underlying push to make money that fuels selling as many as possible. There is also a sense of ownership. To be part of a movement to get a manufacturer to give us what we want.

I will admit though that it does look dangerous. To have approximately one hundred thousand dollars committed by complete strangers. However as with anything on the internet there is always the concern. Even when I purchased chips from BPC recently I grew concerned because my order was delayed almost a week with no word. It turned out you were short on one of the denominations, but the anonymity of pushing a buy button and hoping I would get my item was just as much a concern as anywhere else. Hopefully you will take the time to let your customers know when they order if there is going to be a delay before having to ask in the future.

[TenPercenter]

Whoa... a lot of stuff to digest here... this might take me a while. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ten

[smoore]

My attraction to the group buy comes from beauty, uniqueness (chip security), and price... in that order. I was considering purchasing some ceramic chips at one time (before I fell in love with clay) and looked at all the stock chipcos, that other one (archetype?) and the nevada jacks ceramics. My two favorite are the chipco "classics" and the NJ "desert sands". However, these two designs do not exploit all the advantages a chipco type chip has to offer and in the NJ case actually tries to imitate a clay chip with an insert. All of the other designs are crap, IMO (with the exception of the Apache Casino chipco chip).

Along come the 2+2 group buy "suits" and "egyptians". These two group orders have raised the bar for chip design across the board. They are both stunning.

If you want to attract buyers like me as a retailer, come up with a beautiful design and put it on quality chips. Although retail ads are discouraged in the forum, I don't think a "which would you buy" poll about designs would be as reviled. If you're doing a clay chip, consider a custom mold (not your store name, but something classy), multicolor edgespots and shaped inserts. if you're doing a ceramic chip, use all of the available traits: full bleed, full color and that printable rolling edge.

Basically, I see the chip retailers catering to the "joe six pack" of chip consumers while the group buys are more along the lines of a car club, where everyone wants that little "extra" in the product.

good luck, thoughtful post, OP.

[Gizmata]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, I see the chip retailers catering to the "joe six pack" of chip consumers while the group buys are more along the lines of a car club, where everyone wants that little "extra" in the product.



[/ QUOTE ]

Joe six-pack pays the bills though. Else why would every major ratailer sell a case of chips. The high end is always going to be a smaller market. These forums are even a smaller segment of that small market. To find people that have money, want the best poker chips, have internet access and follow forums I think is pretty small segment overall.

I honestly don't think a bunch of businesses could survive just selling high end chips to the people who come to these forums.

[PinataUT]

(I bought Egyptians in the second run and late. I am in on the King's Crown because I love the feel of those chips. I feel comfortable that I can Ebay both sets in the event that I want to pick up 5k chips from Dennis and dump half of them on Ebay to drive my average cost per chip down... )

So, my understanding then is that this discount is in exchange for the following trade-offs:


Paying cash upfront, perhaps a couple months in the case of a customized group buy

<font color="red">No really a problem with something custom made (or made as part of a 'to order' run.</font>

Paying cash (or Paypal) to someone you know primarily by a made up nickname on a anonymous discussion group on the assumption that they will send you something down the road.

<font color="red">I concur with this sentiment wholeheartedly, and would not deal directly with any individual on any order of any size that would make me uncomfortable. On the TR King order, I had grave reservations until I realized we were doing our orders through to TR King for both order and shipping.</font>


In the event of a customized design - agreeing to buy 500 chips based on a graphic design mock-up that you have little idea of how will look on an actual chip.

<font color="red"> For me the tough part with Egyptians wasn't that I didn't think the chips would look good but rather that I'd NEVER handled Chipco chips. The holdempokerchips.com sampler from Michael helped me out (torture passing on a set of 'suits'), but I was sort of silly in not getting a sample from Ten or someone of the original chip run just to check it out. The Egyptian set is a great looking set and my only issue with it is edge-spots. The fact that I can do add-ons or 'wishlist' add-ons for b-day is a help not a hindrance.</font>


In the event of a customized design - agreeing to a concensus designed chip, or one designed by the group buy organizer, which you have little say over - so essentially it's not really a customized chip, just someone elses design that you get to approve upfront.

<font color="red">I don't think of the Egyptians as a 'custom order' but they are better than what I've seen offered at retailers, especially when you get volume discount and art charge leverage.</font>

In the event of a customized design - Not having the ability to add to your set or replace lost or damaged chips down the road because it's a one-time event.

<font color="red">Depends on what you buy. Many retailers of custom sets give you a discount on 'rebuys.' For something like the TR King, it would be tougher to add chips at the lower price, but not hard to add to the set if you REALLY (read: $$) wanted to do it. For the 'Kings Crown' the design is a) known quantity since I've held chips with the same inlay and b) you can add in unordered denoms if you want. Or I'm considering ordering some fractional hotstamps at some point... or adding a single non-denom chip to my 'stable.'</font>

Assuming the risk that the final prices could change and you're already somewhat pot committed as you've already paid the bulk of the purchase price

<font color="red"> Not for any order I've done. People should be careful about this sort of thing.</font>

Assuming the risk of a fradulent group buy.


<font color="red">I'm 10000% behind you on this one. People seem very casual about this aspect and I don't get it. There is little chance that I'd be handing over $$ to even Ten. </font>

Giving up any degree of customer service in the event that their is a problem with the merchandise and/or the shipment gets lost in transit


<font color="red"> Again a potential issue in some of the other 'group buys' going.</font>

Giving up the ability to return a purchase for a full refund
Giving up the convenience and security protection provided by paying with a credit card

<font color="red">Yep.</font>

Good points and thanks for the post.

Sorry to dupe some of Ray's points.

[TenPercenter]

Stephan, I'm going to repost msot of what I said at the TH-P.com forum, in case 2+2'ers don't make it over there:

=========================

Although it appears on the surface that you are trying to undermine the Paulson group buy, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and consider your post a true concern for the buyers.

Here are my thoughts:

Just about every point you make is wrong. Here are the facts/rebuttals about my last Egyptian group buy, AND about the new Pharaoh's Club Paulson group buy:

* Motivation

All members get a great price, and pride in participating in (and owning a set with) a unique design


* Why are group buy posts are allowed?

These posts are allowed probably because they are a SERVICE to members.


* Giving money to a stranger, cash only, no returns, defective product etc

I will going through a retail distributor with my new Paulson group buy just as I did with the Egyptians. http://HoldemPokerChips.com did a wonderful job on my last group buy. They are courteous, helpful, trustworthy, and the owner is also a contributing poster on this and other forums. I challenge you to find A SINGLE BUYER in my group buys who disagrees.

http://HoldemPokerChips.com provided safe credit card sales, returnable product, and an extended buy period at original prices. Shipping is insured, well packed, and guaranteed with prompt tracking updates. This negates all of your points.

I haven't chosen a distributor yet for the Pharaoh's Club group buy, and you were actually on my list of calls to make once my order hit 50,000 units. I can now see that's one less call I need to make since it appears you are completely against this type of group buy.



* Little say over the design?

You must not have followed my countless design posts on 2+2. The support and participation was enormous. On every stage of the chip design I posted photos and polls, and took all suggestions into consideration prior to making the final decision. I think everyone involved shared in my pride that we created a unique design that is well recieved everywhere in the poker chip community.



* Assuming the risk of a fraudulent group buy

Stephan, I think it was dispicable to single me out, when I've organized the biggest, safest group buy ever. And planning to top that one with the new Paulson group buy. I take offense as on behalf of myself and to the proprietor of HoldemPokerChips.com.

With sales being made by ESCROW in my first buy, and credit card sales in the second, how can you even consider this accusation?



* On top of you being wrong about all of those things, the most important point is that we GOT A BETTER PRICE! Try buying 1000 Chipco custom chips by yourself with a different design on each chip. You'll pay WELL over $2000 for those chips.


There. I said it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Greg Cagle
aka Ten Percenter
4216 Los Robles Drive
Plano, TX 75074

817-798-5932

http://www.thecagles.com
http://www.lightningsolutions.net
http://www.tenpercenter.com

[smoore]

d00d, Ten....

You just posted your phone number and address on the internut.

I'd edit that crap out if I were you. If it's in your whois info I'd get rid of it there too. Just trying to watch out for your interests. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[TenPercenter]

[ QUOTE ]
d00d, Ten....

You just posted your phone number and address on the internut.

I'd edit that crap out if I were you. If it's in your whois info I'd get rid of it there too. Just trying to watch out for your interests. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a cell phone, and I'm not worried in the least. I don't need to be told about the dangers, I founded Compass Communications, an ISP in Seattle, and started and ran a network consulting company until 2000 (Lightningweb Networking). I get 200-300 spams every day because I refuse to give up the same email address I've had for many many years. http://Mailblocks.com takes care of that splendidly.

To prevent any of the insinuations from swaying even ONE group buyer, I want everyone to know that I'm an ok guy. Call me, write me, hell, come on over.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I have four different IM accounts running at all times, and they are posted freely at any forum I join. Anyone can contact me.

Ten

[smoore]

cool enough. I don't think you're a scam simply because of how you've handled the two buys you've done. To be honest with you, an address and a phone number don't go nearly as far as a distributor like holdempokerchips.com does. I understand the sentiment though.

[duma]

i will disagree with everything BuyPokerChips has said. If you are looking for some kind of sympathy or something, youve come to the wrong place.

But heres some advice. If your REALLY want to make some money, get Bud Jones (NOT coin inlayed) to make custom chips for you. Even Jesus himself couldnt persuade that company to sell to the public. if u can do that, then i guarantee you will see some profit in your future.

[PinataUT]

Ten, I can certainly see being mentioned as being annoying or insulting. People (especially professional cynics like me) may appear paranoid to you but to them they are just meeting their own comfort level.

I only get 200 spams a day and mailarmory.com helps me deal with those. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Family member who bought the Egyptians for me got to see them yesterday: best looking chips she'd ever seen. /images/graemlins/smile.gif This is someone with a native artistic bent - can't wait to run them in front of her professional artist buddy.

[TakenItEasy]

I will attest to the last group buy of Egyptians.

I purchased over 1300 chips and am planning to rebuy more. Michael at HoldemPokerChips.com was simply the best internet purchase experience that I have ever had. He answered every email question immediately and was extremely friendly. He gave frequent updates on schedule and even gave links to the delivery tracking. You can tell that he was genuinely interested in this purchase, perhaps as much as any of us. I really felt like I was buying from a small town store on the internet!

TenPercenter, your design was simply the most exquisite chip that I have ever seen. When I saw your chips for the first time on the Poker Chips Pictures Only post, My jaw just dropped. I was heartbroken when I found out that I had missed out on a group buy for those chips. Of course I jumped at the chance of the second buy. The Octs and Plaques really added to the uniqueness factor. My players love to bump the pot T$15,000 with a very satisfying clack. I have been remiss in posting my kudos before but now is as good a time as any. Keep up the great work.

I don't feel like I had to sacrifice anything and in fact it was quite the opposite. After so many screwups with other online purchases, this purchase was a great experience and a great product.

[BuyPokerChips]

Relax Ten... or Mr. Cagle... or HoldemPokerChips.com... or whoever!

Not singling you out, just using your group buy as an example. I'm just trying to understand how and why these things work, and what need it serves, which I've been enlightened by in many of the posts to this thread. I don't have anything against group buys, they sound great to me for all involved if it's all above board. They serve the community just like retailers do, just a little differently. Retailers speculate, group buys are more grassroots, which I understand is appealing (and I applaud).

Oddly enough, in the midst of this thread, a strange thing occurred to me, it seems to me that these particular group buys are nothing more than a means of working the bulletin board system in themselves. In my mind, Holdempokerchips.com is a chip retailer like any other that gets around advertising on boards by doing "group buys". I mean they sell these things on their site after the group buys, right. How's that different from a retailer coming out with a line of chips. Ingenious really. I see Holdempokerchips.com as the originating body, and a somewhat seedy one in my brief experience with them. After all they, in fact, publically sell my Vintage Vegas chips on their site (http://www.holdempokerchips.com/proddetail.asp?prod=YSET83&amp;cat=18) (it appears as in stock sets which anyone could buy 2, 3, or 10 of) even though I've emailed them to cease and desist in reselling our company's goods without permission (not to mention these chips are no longer made).

Holdempokerchip.com, I have a problem with. Group buys, I don't have any problem whatsoever.

[X-Files]

I do not know if this was changed recently it looks like he mentions your site in the description of these chips. Why can’t he resell your chips? He bought them from you they are his now. It is just like selling them on eBay. Sounds like you are jealous. So you are going to bash this other company. I hope holdempokerchips.com responds. I am starting to get the opinion that you are the unscrupulous company.

[ QUOTE ]
I see Holdempokerchips.com as the originating body, and a somewhat seedy one in my brief experience with them. After all they, in fact, publically sell my Vintage Vegas chips on their site (it appears as in stock sets which anyone could buy 2, 3, or 10 of) even though I've emailed them to cease and desist in reselling our company's goods without permission (not to mention these chips are no longer made).

[/ QUOTE ]

[TenPercenter]

[ QUOTE ]
Relax Ten... or Mr. Cagle... or HoldemPokerChips.com... or whoever!

Not singling you out, just using your group buy as an example.

Ingenious really. I see Holdempokerchips.com as the originating body, and a somewhat seedy one in my brief experience with them. After all they, in fact, publically sell my Vintage Vegas chips on their site (http://www.holdempokerchips.com/proddetail.asp?prod=YSET83&amp;cat=18) (it appears as in stock sets which anyone could buy 2, 3, or 10 of) even though I've emailed them to cease and desist in reselling our company's goods without permission (not to mention these chips are no longer made).

Holdempokerchip.com, I have a problem with. Group buys, I don't have any problem whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]


It continues to amaze me, your portrayed obtuseness. You act like all of this is new to you, including pretending as if you've never heard of me, or HoldemPokerChips.com, or "whoever." I mean, come one, you spent four paragraphs trying to instill doubt in my SPECIFIC group buy. And now you say in essence, "Oh, that reminds me, I have a beef with HoldemPokerChips.com! They [as my competitor] sell a product that I'm out of stock on!" Come on Stephan, the guy can sell whatever he wants! And he even credits your site in the sale! Jeez, you're dealing a low blow here...

It looks as though your vendetta goes deeper than just being bested by a bunch of chip junkies doing group buys. Or, you just like to take jabs at everyone in the chip industry. Any other half-veiled insinuations you want to make?

Ten




p.s. Your complaint reminds me of a story I heard about Sam Walton where he went and BOUGHT OUT all the ladies underwear from his competitor across the street. Then he offered them at a discount to everyone, and his competitor had no underwear. Go Sam!

[jojobinks]

bpc = douchebag

[RogerZBT]

Are you the worst business man in the world or do you just believe that even bad press is better than no press?

HPC has done two very successful group buys recently and, to the best of my knowledge, there have been no problems. Now you come here and try to throw them and Tenpercenter under the bus with no results. That should probably have been a clue to back off. But instead of back-pedaling and maybe also "getting around the no advertising rule", you try even harder and make things worse for yourself. In short, you blew it.

[toots]

[ QUOTE ]
How's that different from a retailer coming out with a line of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess reading comprehension isn't on your list of priorities.

It's different because:

1) The artwork was designed by a customer, rather than the retailer
2) Retailers never come up with chips/artwork this interesting on their own
3) Maybe if a retailer did come up with chips that nice, and with the same decent discount we've seen in these group buys, we'd buy those instead.

Hey, you wanna sell me chips? Come up with some nice looking Paulsons at a decent price.

[warewulf]

I'm boycotting you.

Your obviously bitter that your chips are not selling well and trying to jump on the bandwagon that we have created.

You're only motivation -- to make money. Our motivation is to have cool chips and cut out the greedy middle man like you.

Get off our board and go back to selling your crappy, ugly chips. You're not getting any help from us. I have recomended the archetypes many times in the past, will no longer do so.

What I think of your attitude and your chips: http://grue.us/puke.gif

Bite me!

[Audioflow]

You're a class act Ten.

[BuyPokerChips]

My final post, guys… you can think that I’m just a retailer who feels he has “lost” but retailer or not, no one likes bad karma and I didn’t come to your forum to cause trouble. So…

Topic #1 – the tone of my original post

I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about all this. I apologize if the tone of my posts sounded accusatory; as you all know, I don’t post often, and I was essentially thinking out loud in my original post without thinking through the nuances and qualifying my opinions. It has snowballed from here, and it’s human nature to defend yourself when under attack. As some of you have pointed out, I did have some valid points even if I used a poor example.

Topic #2 – attacking Ten

In my original post, I said

[ QUOTE ]
Let's take TenPercenter's group buy of 100,000 Paulson chips "you read that right, 100,000 chip order", on a different board, for example. Now, no offense TenPercenter, I'm not accusing you in any way of running a scam. Rahter I'm just pointing out that if a confidence man was to run a scam, they could do something very similar to what you've done and perhaps walk away with 2 years salary for the average person on this 100,000 chip group buy alone, not to mention replicating this on every product-specific board on the Internet.

Some out there might be saying, wait, TenPercenter already did at least one group buy (on the Pharoah's Club Chipco) and everyone got their chips just fine. So there's no risk right? He's proved himself trustful. Or you could take the perspective that it was just the first step in a long con, one that could really bilk a bunch of people our of some cash, like a 100,000 chip order. After all, why would he organize a 2nd group buy when he already has his perfect chip set from the first buy. Who needs two different sets of chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

In the first paragraph, I made it a point to say that I was NOT accusing Ten. However, in the second paragraph, I mention the long con and also Ten. I did NOT mean to connect these two and imply that Ten was conning anyone. I was simply going off the example and lumped Ten in. Someone could – though apparently you guys have set up safeguards that I wasn’t aware of.

Topic #3 - In closing...

Although I might have stated it clumsily, I was in fact trying to find out more about your market segment, and I have learned quite a bit. My general take away is this:

- There is a strong general consensus among board members that the currently available designs available to the consumer market is lacking.
- Board members want more say in design and pricing of chips, and are willing to make trade-offs, if necessary.
- Board members seem to dislike the word "Poker" on our Modern Clay chips.
- Some board members believe there is need for a downward adjustment on prices in the high-end of the chip market.

Lastly, I'd like to say we support poker chip consumers (Perhaps in a different manner than Ten and other group buyer organizers), but still we support the market. Do we have healthy retail margins? You can't survive and innovate over the long term without them. We're a business like any other, and we reinvest our profits in an effort to move the market forward and bring better and better chips to the market. We serve a specific target market of customers that want the highest quality chips, they want them quickly and without any hassles, and they're willing to pay a premium price to get what they want, when they want.

While some on this board say there is a need for a downward price adjustment, we and our customer base believe quite the opposite. The result of this perceived need for a downward price adjustment is what you're seeing from Paulson - a chip on a mold that is different than what consumers what (they just reused their standard demo chip mold), inlays that don't even fit the mold, and less and less variety of designs as they only are interested in 100,000 to 250,000 chip orders. So, in essence, more of the same. That's what consumers get for the price they're willing to pay is what the company line appears to be.

We're looking to get the best chips possible, and pay what is necessary. Price is not really a primary consideration. We believe there are tremendous strides left to be made in chip design, quality, and manufacturing technology in the chip market. Furthermore, we believe the high-end of the chip market can only be advanced by retailers and manufacturers that have an interest in improving poker chips for the home market, and this improvement requires investment, and a genuine interest in serving the needs of this market.

That's why we posted this thread in the first place. And now, we've said about all we can say, it's back to business.

[DerryABU]

[ QUOTE ]
We serve a specific target market of customers that want the highest quality chips, they want them quickly and without any hassles, and they're willing to pay a premium price to get what they want, when they want.

While some on this board say there is a need for a downward price adjustment, we and our customer base believe quite the opposite. The result of this perceived need for a downward price adjustment is what you're seeing from Paulson - a chip on a mold that is different than what consumers what (they just reused their standard demo chip mold), inlays that don't even fit the mold, and less and less variety of designs as they only are interested in 100,000 to 250,000 chip orders. So, in essence, more of the same. That's what consumers get for the price they're willing to pay is what the company line appears to be.

We're looking to get the best chips possible, and pay what is necessary. Price is not really a primary consideration. We believe there are tremendous strides left to be made in chip design, quality, and manufacturing technology in the chip market. Furthermore, we believe the high-end of the chip market can only be advanced by retailers and manufacturers that have an interest in improving poker chips for the home market, and this improvement requires investment, and a genuine interest in serving the needs of this market.


[/ QUOTE ]

This theory just does not hold up,at the end of the day your Archetype chips are simply a different Chipco design from the Classics,Crystal Oyster and Egyptians etc.The Archetype chips are the same quality as those mentioned but at a lot more $$.Is your design worth the extra $110 for a 500 set? I don't think so.

[msb]

[ QUOTE ]
Get off our board and go back to selling your crappy, ugly chips.

I have recomended the archetypes many times in the past, will no longer do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

So... you recommended crappy, ugly chips? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[toots]

Oh, let's see...

I buy 500 totally unexceptional looking ChipCo "Archetypes" at about $1.15 each, or 500 really cool looking Egyptians, which at the second group buy was something like $.89 each.

In fact, I can still get oneseys of the egyptians for.. $1.05 each? I'd have to buy 1000 archetypes to get that sort of price break.

So, you lose on two important points:

1) Your chips aren't really that exciting
2) They cost more

... now, why was it again that I want to buy your chips?

[unloaded]

Wow, what a thread. Gonna have to put my $.02 worth in. While reading the original post I didn't get the feeling that he was attacking anybody personally. I haven't been involved in any of the group buys, so maybe that gives me a bit more distance from the subject. I do follow the threads closely though. I came away with the sense that he is noticing an unmet need, that the group buys are meeting. As a business man, he'd want to define the pie and how to get a piece of it.

HoldemPokerChips seems to have struck gold by offering to handle the final end of the deals. Even assuming they make nothing off the original order (which I have no idea either way), they get many benifits after the fact: happy (returning) customers from the group buy, very nice set of proven popular chips to offer the public (exclusively? again no idea), zero investment in the chip design or setups. That's just some simple observations of tangible things, not to mention the intangibles like word of mouth advertising or "covert advertising" of their name coming up a lot on the forums.

Both HPC and the "group" benefit from this relationship. I've listed some of HPC's gains, what does the "group" get out of the deal...? Biggest benefit would be security on the financial end, also the ability to get addons/replacements after the fact. Although the group does lose some of the uniqueness, which suggests thats not a major factor in the group buys.

Now I admit I don't know any details of the arrangements made between the "group" and the "servicing company" and I'm not insinuating anything, just stating the obvious. That agreement seems to be the area with the most room for wiggle. If I were a company wanting to break into this area I would focus on trying to offer the "group" a better service deal than the competing company. Lots of ideas on how this can be done come to mind. A slight investment in the deal should should pay for it self down the road. Although us chip-junkies are on the cutting edge right now, the main-stream will follow.

I know I've generalized and over simplified, but anybody with some business smarts can crunch the numbers and see what comes out.

peace.
unloaded