Good Push Situations?

[mlee]

I'm still new to MTTs and was wondering if these were good situations to push in. I had just moved to the table and don't have too good a read. Table seemed standard without overly aggressive players. I would appreciate your comments.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t4115)
UTG (t3260)
UTG+1 (t7095)
MP1 (t7360)
MP2 (t4325)
MP3 (t4985)
CO (t9015)
Button (t2685)
SB (t12440)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t600</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls t600, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t2685</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t4115</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds.

Second hand came up after I lost the first hand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1330)
Button (t2760)
SB (t6095)
BB (t7360)
UTG (t4825)
UTG+1 (t5685)
MP1 (t9015)
MP2 (t6270)
MP3 (t11940)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t500</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1330</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls t830.

[whiskeytown]

in both cases you called a raise/reraise with what I think could be an inferior hand. (maybe not to a raise the first time, but the raise and reraise and at BEST you're 50/50) -

what's wrong with just calling and seeing if the flop hurts/improves your hand? - in the first situation I don't think you're short stacked enough to do a reraise all in with Q's - in the second spot, you are short stacked enough, but it's probably still not a smart move if you aren't the initial raiser -

a large part of going all in or pushing is being the first one and having position to do it -
RB

[mlee]

Thank you, I appreciate the input. If I had AA in the first situation, would that still be a call versus a reraise or all in?

[JaBlue]

1st push: good.

2nd: Very bad push. He has to call you with anything. The best case scenario is a coinflip or AQ. You're just too often dominated in this hand to make this push good. However, if everyone folded to you and you open-pushed, it would be fine. You still have some time to find a better spot.

[whiskeytown]

you see, Jablue...here's my thoughts as I expressed above -

it's been popped and repopped. Now, at BEST, one of them has AK - and if you're lucky, the other one has an A or K and has reduced the outs -

I'm not super duper comfy pushing all in here unless I know the raiser and reraiser are overaggressive - but I can't tell that from the post - one raise, absolutely - a raise/reraise....well....I think he's beaten by AA/KK. Let's see if he tells us how he lost the hand. It's the reraise that makes me go hmmm...

and hell, he did get it heads up....so it partially worked - but the 2nd all in had a big hand, I'm guessing...or a 50/50 - RB

RB

[JaBlue]

WhiskeyTown: I think your hand range for the repopper is way too narrow. He has 2600. The bet is 600 to him. He should be pushing with a lot more hands here than just AA,KK, and AK. I would expect JJ, 1010, AK, AQ to push here and that's still kind of narrow. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see 99, 88, or 77.

[Mammux]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't be surprised at all to see 99, 88, or 77.

[/ QUOTE ]
An aggressive player could even make this move with suited connectors. Even if the blinds folded, this would be a very hard call for the original raiser, since there is another caller yet to act. Harrington describes this pretty well in HoH, I think he calls it the squeeze move or the sandwich effect.

-Magnus

[Kronon]

In the first example, I would be very surprised if the button did have AA or KK. Why would he make a raise that probably will scare everyone away with a monster hand?

If he had raised to 1500, I would fold QQ here. But as this put turned out, I would push like you did. And if he has AA or KK, you are simply outplayed and its nothing you can do about it.

The second example is an automatic fold. I would not call with this hand, and I would most definitely not see a raise with it, unless I am extremely shortstacked.

Here is a little lesson that surprisingly many people dont think about: a hand like KJ is often FAR worse than a hand like 67 suited against a raiser or reraiser. The reason is that KJ is dominated by AK, AJ, KQ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, which are all common opening/raising hands.

[Mammux]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a little lesson that surprisingly many people dont think about: a hand like KJ is often FAR worse than a hand like 67 suited against a raiser or reraiser. The reason is that KJ is dominated by AK, AJ, KQ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, which are all common opening/raising hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was playing a live tourney some time back. I was short-stacked in MP with 5xbb or so. UTG is also short-stacked (6xbb), and goes all-in. I call all-in with KQs. It's folded around to the big stack(40xbb), who is a very good player. He calls with 67s. UTG shows KQo. The big stack hits his 7 and wins the pot.

At the time I thought this was horrible play by the big stack, but I've realized that it's actually pretty good.

-Magnus

[tiger7210]

The first one I flat call hoping the original raiser also calls or pushes. My reasoning is that if the reraiser has AA/KK's and the UTG has AK/AQ and is loose I may be able to win a sidepot from UTG 1 to cover my loss if button does have a bigger pair.

The second hand I think is a clear push evn if you may be behind you have 7x BB and still some FE as MP 2 doesnt neccessarily have to have a big hand here to be raising with his chip count.

[Kronon]

[ QUOTE ]
The first one I flat call hoping the original raiser also calls or pushes. My reasoning is that if the reraiser has AA/KK's and the UTG has AK/AQ and is loose I may be able to win a sidepot from UTG 1 to cover my loss if button does have a bigger pair.

[/ QUOTE ]I fail to see the logic here. If you allow him to call with AK, and the flop dont contain any A or K, you still have to bet and he will fold. So that wont make you any more money.

The only thing you can hope for is if he have AQ and an Q flops. That would make you some money, but its not very likely. And he will fold AJ no matter what, and probably JJ or lower, so you wont have him dominated.

And if the flop does contain an A or K, your play just cost you the whole pot.

Its a lose/lose situation.

[tiger7210]

[ QUOTE ]
I fail to see the logic here. If you allow him to call with AK, and the flop dont contain any A or K, you still have to bet and he will fold. So that wont make you any more money.

The only thing you can hope for is if he have AQ and an Q flops. That would make you some money, but its not very likely. And he will fold AJ no matter what, and probably JJ or lower, so you wont have him dominated.


[/ QUOTE ]

My logic is there is now 6000 chips in the middle UTG would be getting 3-1 on his call. He probably has a better than avg hand raising UTG and lets say it is a pair of 99-JJ's. If the flop comes 3 rags he may get action. If UTG raiser is loose he may even call PF with AJ for that big of a pot and when the J hits the flop you then may get action. You may even milk AQ/AJ/AK or a middle pair for some chips with that much money in the pot. Its simply playing QQ's against a separate opponents. You're calling half your stack and are pot committed, with a hand like QQ's I don't see why you would push him out. If he pushes all in Preflop you have to call anyways.

[pocketjacks]

Could you please tell me the name of this book, and is it good? How does it compare to Sklansky's TPFAP?
What all does it cover?
Thank you.

[mlee]

I guess my thinking was push to get the other two out, is this a bad idea? If I just call do you think the other two would probably fold. He had A K o. K on turn, A on river.

[tiger7210]

This is why I don't want to push the other 2 out. Flat calling behind may entice 1 or both of the 2 other players into the pot where you may get sucked out and lose your whole atck but you also give yourself a chance to win a nice sidepot and maybe even triple up here. At this point in the tourny its a chance I'm usually willing to take to get a big stack and try and get deep into the money. If you were already in the money and deeper into the tourny then I would reraise all in to try and isolate against the shorter stack. Just my opinion.

[mlee]

Thank you, I see what you are saying. I should have mentioned that since I am still trying to feel my way around, this was a low buy in mtt $10. I have seen a lot of people raise strong with hands like A9s, KQ s or o, QJs, or even 98s. I have also seen people push all in (like in this situation) to try and get the others to fold because they don't really want to play the hand. Is my thinking okay here? Does this only happen in lower level and not higher level mtts.

If I just call, and someone else calls the all in, what range of hands would you put them on?

Thanks for all the help.

[Mammux]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you please tell me the name of this book, and is it good? How does it compare to Sklansky's TPFAP?
What all does it cover?
Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Harrington on Hold'em.

It's different from TPFAP in a lot of ways. It's more practical, with focus on real situations and how Harrington would play them. A great book, but it's not as packed with information as some other 2+2 books. So it's an easier read, but might not be worth as many rereads as say SSH.

-Magnus