3 bet with flush draw on flop high card King

[jt1]

Button seems your regular tight passive, perhaps a TAG - i've got no numbers.

2 limps and I in CO raise with AT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Button 3 bets. blinds fold. limpers call. I call

K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

checked to button who bets. limpers fold. I raise. Button 3 bets. I decide to cap.

8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet. Button calls

Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

bet, call


Sure, I got lucky, but I was hoping he had a smaller pockets than a King and would fold the turn. Is this too aggressive.

[Kailia Marie]

Hi jt1,

I think this hand is wildly overplayed. Capping the flop out of position serves no purpose because he will not fold and it is not for value and you can't get a free card on the turn. Then you make this continuation bet on the turn that he simply will not fold to.

/images/graemlins/heart.gifKailia

[jt1]

hey,

you made good points yesterday, so obviously u know your stuff. but can i get any love for the possibility that he has TT - QQ, was re-raising the flop to protect against a steal and will fold the turn. After all, my read is that he's a pretty decent player and, at least after the first re-raise, i'm only loosing one extra sb to entertain this possibility. He won't raise the turn due to the two 7's.

[Harv72b]

Just to expand a bit...the only way you're going to get a fold out Button on this hand is if you get running diamonds to a 4-flush board, and he doesn't have one. Even then, though, he's probably going to call 1 bet on the river HU.

I'd also like to add that given the preflop action & the paired flop, there's no guarantee that you'll win the hand even if you do hit your flush. Although the flop action does make it look like he's on AA, in which case you don't have to worry about the flush card filling his boat.

If I'd been your opponent in this hand, you'd have a little note in your file right now. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jt1]

I'm not arguing with you guys. I just want to clarify some points. Are you saying that a good player would call down with QQ? I consider my self good, and I'd fold the turn. Secondly, believe it or not, I'd have folded to a turn raise. Would that have been dumb? I'm thinking that a flop cap and a turn lead indicates trips (A7s perhaps)and only a boat would raise, there.

[hate]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not arguing with you guys. I just want to clarify some points. Are you saying that a good player would call down with QQ? I consider my self good, and I'd fold the turn. Secondly, believe it or not, I'd have folded to a turn raise. Would that have been dumb? I'm thinking that a flop cap and a turn lead indicates trips (A7s perhaps)and only a boat would raise, there.

[/ QUOTE ]

QQ shouldn't have 3-bet on the flop unless he's as laggy as you were. Once he does 3-bet the flop, I'm expecting to see him to the river at least. Your behavior may indicate a specific thing such as trips, but you're not going to get him to fold.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
QQ shouldn't have 3-bet on the flop unless he's as laggy as you were.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I am a LAG (perhaps a weak LAG given my 3 folds post), but I'd reraise with TT-QQ on this board. The two 7's invite a bluff.

[hate]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
QQ shouldn't have 3-bet on the flop unless he's as laggy as you were.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I am a LAG (perhaps a weak LAG given my 3 folds post), but I'd reraise with TT-QQ on this board. The two 7's invite a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're saying that the 7s are inviting a bluff, yet he 3-bet preflop. The two are incongruous in my book. He might put YOU on A7, but he's still not folding.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
You're saying that the 7s are inviting a bluff, yet he 3-bet preflop. The two are incongruous in my book. He might put YOU on A7, but he's still not folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying that if I were him, I'd think that any raise or bet was a bluff. As for QQ not folding. I guess that's the consensus, which means I won't try to get such a hand to fold the next time.

[hate]

The thing is, you've got a limited number of hands that a reasonable player will 3-bet with preflop. AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, a frisky 99 perhaps, AK, AQ, even an AJ. I'd say AK is going to be the most likely. Once he 3-bets on the flop, I'm thinking you can safely assume he's hit something he likes, either AA or AK.

Now you're pointing out that any raise by you would be seen as a bluff by him. Weren't you trying to drive him out of the pot with all this betting? If he doesn't believe your betting, then it served no purpose, because it's certainly not for value.

[Etric]

Tight player on the Button 3 bet pf and 3 bet the flop. It doesn't make sense that he'd fold the turn for 1BB. The 8 is not scary. What would you have done if he raised the turn? I would have check/call the turn and tried for the river c/r if a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif came or check/fold if another blank came.

[jt1]

Not to beat a dead horse, but what I'm saying is that some of the hands he might be 3 betting with would fold to a check raise on that flop. (AQ, 99)Many players with better hands like TT-QQ would simply call down, and I only loose 1 sb to possibly win a pot.

His rr indicates that he has KK, AK or AA or he is a good player with TT-QQ and will fold if i cap and lead the turn. To find this out, I only loose 1 extra sb.

However, you say that no one is folding a pocket pair, and since he probably had AA, KK, AK to begin with, ever bluffing was a bad idea. I think you're right. The bluff would have cost me 1.5 bb when traditional hand reading says that a 3 bettor already made that flop.

[Etric]

I counted around 11BB on the turn. Do not bet/fold to a raise. Tight players do not 3 bet K7 or 87 and he will have KK rarely.

[hate]

Let's say he's got either a random PP from TT-AA or AK from his flop 3-bet. This is just some evidence. AA, AK, and KK are bad, you can possibly get QQ, JJ, and TT to fold. Over the last 10k hands, I've gotten AK(s and o) 176 times. I've gotten QQ, JJ, and TT about 50 times each. If you include the times that he'll have the unlikelier AA and KK and the possibility that he won't fold the lower pocket pairs, it doesn't make all that much sense. Odds are going to be all wonky because you've got an A so those numbers aren't going to be completely accurate, but I think that'll illustrate the idea. I'll have to calculate everything up tomorrow, 2tired.