PP 200 NL Top 2, Raise, Call or Fold?

[warlockjd]

All comments welcome please.

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($222.65)
BB ($308.15)
UTG ($180.55)
<font color="#C00000">UTG+1 ($191)</font>
UTG+2 ($197.2)
MP1 ($134.55)
MP2 ($253.05)
MP3 ($54.55)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($224.4)</font>
Button ($386.45)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $1. UTG+1 posts a blind of $2. Hero posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 (poster) checks, UTG+2 calls $2, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero (poster) checks, Button calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: ($12) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $11.4</font>, Button folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $11.40, UTG+2 folds.

Turn: ($34.80) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> Hero bets $33.1. villain Raises $85. Hero is all in ($92.60). Villain calls.

River: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: $387, between UTG+1 and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="#FFFFFF">Pot won by UTG+1 ($387).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG+1 has 8h 8s (three of a kind, eights).
Hero has Js Ac (two pair, aces and jacks).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $387. </font>

[greg nice]

this is tough to get away from. telling you to fold to the raise is probably weak-tight, but im known to be weak tight at times.

i dont really know what hands you beat here that he would limp early with. suited ace that made lower two pair perhaps. maybe a limped AK but hes probably not playing for his whole stack in that case.

be careful in unraised pots.

[theben]

I'd have gone broke here to. when you make top-2 pair and no hands can be dealt off complete at that point, its really hard to fold. one thing i do not like about making top-2 with AX is that there are no overpairs to the flop and less hands out there that you can bet, so you do worry a bit more about a set. but still, you have a hand that most players (including me) would go broke with. unless this guy is a super rock, you are going to have to pay him off.

[ihardlyknowher]

Ready to come back to 6-max? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[TheWorstPlayer]

I usually raise AJo in LP, but I'm not sure limping is bad. If you raise this, getting away is even harder and I don't think it is really that possible here either. Just sucks.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise AJo in LP, but I'm not sure limping is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im sure raising is bad.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise AJo in LP, but I'm not sure limping is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im sure raising is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
And let me guess. . . you're going to let others elaborate?

[MarkL444]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise AJo in LP, but I'm not sure limping is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im sure raising is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
And let me guess. . . you're going to let others elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap like AJo doesnt play well when youre deep. This hand is a PERFECT example why.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise AJo in LP, but I'm not sure limping is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im sure raising is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
And let me guess. . . you're going to let others elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap like AJo doesnt play well when youre deep. This hand is a PERFECT example why.

[/ QUOTE ]
Crap like AJo doesn't play well multi-way. I have no problems playing it when I am deep. So you have to lay down TPTK if you get too much heat. So what? You think AJo is a loser for me in late position because I raise it?

[MarkL444]

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Crap like AJo doesn't play well multi-way

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously.

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You think AJo is a loser for me in late position because I raise it?

[/ QUOTE ]

i hate to say that i know what i say is true. i dont. i do think i am right though, and would be happy to debate it and find out.

i think you might be able to pick up a good amount of small pots with a raise and flop bet. i also think this is closer to a raise in a 6 max game, although i am not toally sure. IIRC this was 8 handed. how much of a raise are you going to put in? 3xBB?

edit- 10 handed

[fimbulwinter]

you're completely wrong, sorry.

people in general do not raise enough hands preflop from late position, especially when deep. do you see why?

fim

[MarkL444]

actually i misread the hand. i didnt see that there was a poster. i thought two limpers. do you think this is a raise with 2 limpers?

[MarkL444]

in this hand with the poster i do think this is a raise. my bad.

[jonnyUCB]

lol one hour later and 180 degree reversal /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MarkL444]

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lol one hour later and 180 degree reversal /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

what are you talking about. i clearly stated that i wasnt taking the poster into consideration at first. i also said that with 2 limpers (which is what I originally thought), i think raising is wrong. i assume this is what worstplayer was thinking too as he never mentioned the blind, but said:

[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise AJo in LP

[/ QUOTE ]
and
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You think AJo is a loser for me in late position because I raise it?

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[JaBlue]

Fold this turn. Only hand I can think of that you beat is A8.

I also don't like your turn bet size. I would rather bet 25$.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold this turn. Only hand I can think of that you beat is A8.


[/ QUOTE ]

terrible advice. he is getting nearly 3-1 and is ahead FAR more often than that. plus has some odds of drawing out on 88 and 44.

[JaBlue]

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Fold this turn. Only hand I can think of that you beat is A8.


[/ QUOTE ]

terrible advice. he is getting nearly 3-1 and is ahead FAR more often than that. plus has some odds of drawing out on 88 and 44.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike: I'm pretty sure you didn't think about this hand at all. What hand range are you assigning the villain? I actually re-evaluated what I thought. I think the villain has either 88 or AJ in this spot. Villain's play doesn't make ANY sense at all if he's playing any other cards.

[MarkL444]

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Fold this turn. Only hand I can think of that you beat is A8.


[/ QUOTE ]

terrible advice. he is getting nearly 3-1 and is ahead FAR more often than that. plus has some odds of drawing out on 88 and 44.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike: I'm pretty sure you didn't think about this hand at all. What hand range are you assigning the villain? I actually re-evaluated what I thought. I think the villain has either 88 or AJ in this spot. Villain's play doesn't make ANY sense at all if he's playing any other cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

who the hell is mike? and incase it hasnt been mentioned somewhere above, the villain posted UTG+1. im right.

[JaBlue]

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Fold this turn. Only hand I can think of that you beat is A8.


[/ QUOTE ]

terrible advice. he is getting nearly 3-1 and is ahead FAR more often than that. plus has some odds of drawing out on 88 and 44.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike: I'm pretty sure you didn't think about this hand at all. What hand range are you assigning the villain? I actually re-evaluated what I thought. I think the villain has either 88 or AJ in this spot. Villain's play doesn't make ANY sense at all if he's playing any other cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

who the hell is mike? and incase it hasnt been mentioned somewhere above, the villain posted UTG+1. im right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mark: First of all, hero is not getting 3-1 on the turn. He's being checkraised for 50 more with 150 in the pot, but he's not making a decision for 50.00$ He's making a decision for 150$. In reality, he's getting 300-150, or 2:1. It's still a bad call. Again, what hand range do you put the villain on here? You should very quickly realize that 88 is the only hand that a rational villain will hold in this spot.

[MarkL444]

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First of all, hero is not getting 3-1 on the turn. He's being checkraised for 50 more with 150 in the pot,

[/ QUOTE ]

checkraised?!?? but that sounds like 3:1 to me.

[ QUOTE ]
He's making a decision for 150$. In reality, he's getting 300-150, or 2:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

what the hell are you talking about?

[ QUOTE ]
Again, what hand range do you put the villain on here?

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm, considering the fact that he POSTED he could have anything.

no learned player ever posts utg+1, dont give this guy too much credit.

[JaBlue]

Mark: When the bet is 50$ back to here, he still has 150 behind. It's the turn. It should be pretty obvious that its all going in this hand, so in effect the decision is not for 50$. It's for 150$. If you don't understand this, sorry, you're just a complete idiot.

It doesn't matter if the guy posted. The way he has played the hand has completely defined it for us. Check-call flop. Check-raise turn. If this doesn't scream "MONSTER" to you, well, again you're a complete idiot. So now that we've defined it as a monster, what kind of monster is it? Does he have two pair? Let's see. He could have J8, AJ, or A8. Generally these hands will lead the flop, so its rather unlikely that he has these hands. He could also have a set; aces are extremely unlinkely given that he didn't raise. Jacks are also unlikely because of that, but some players are afraid to raise them EP preflop. Fine. Maybe he has jacks. Eights: this seems like a perfectly logical candidate for the opponent. He has a monster, it's not two pair, so it must be a set. Aces and jacks aren't likely, so it MUST be eights.

PS: I'm not going to respond to any of your replies from this point on unless you try to put villain on a range of hands. It's clear that you've got your little postcount++ thing going on with your terse replies that include no analysis or thought whatsoever. If you want to continue playing poker with the thoughts "I have top two, it doesn't matter what my opponent has, he could have anything, so surely I'm winning" then that's fine for you. I won't interrupt your brilliant analysis anymore.