I check, I check, I call with a flush

[mmbt0ne]

This hand should be standard, but I really hated calling the river at the time.

SB seems to be an uneventful 20/4/2

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

River: (2.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

[Shillx]

I don't like the river call at all to tell you the truth.

Brad

[wyoak]

i may have bet the flop
definitely bet the turn
definitely raise the river (depending on the results of my previous two moves - to clarify I wouldn't raise the river if I'd checked to this point)

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
definitely bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhhhhh..........no thanks.

[wyoak]

if you're not betting the turn i don't see how you're calling the river

[mmbt0ne]

Well I did hit the flush on the river, so that factored into it some.

[wyoak]

2 7 or 9 beats you, plus the smaller possibility of a higher flush.
now i should warn you that I suck postflop so I'm most likely wrong.

[Shillx]

definitely raise the river

This is an option but in a pot this size, I don't think it is the best option. The river is clearly a raise or fold proposition though with 3 people left to act behind the hero.

Brad

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
i may have bet the flop
definitely bet the turn
definitely raise the river (depending on the results of my previous two moves - to clarify I wouldn't raise the river if I'd checked to this point)

[/ QUOTE ]

You would bet the flop w/ a backdoor flush and overs in to a field of 4? Sounds like spewing to me.

[Yobz]

I would have done the same as you did...not that that means your right /images/graemlins/smile.gif
I dont like a river raise because it cuts off overcalls from people (who, if they have you beat will call and if not will fold) and then you can get 3-bet easily...i think raising the river is spewing. If I were in last position on the turn I might consider a bet to try and steal, but your position sucks so I like your flop and turn. I like the river because even though you are getting 3.5:1 to call, I think you might be good here at least that often...if it gets raised then I'm folding

[Yobz]

Let me just add to my post saying that this is an excellent example of a situation where position is key: if you were in the best position, you might have stolen the pot on the turn right away and if your last to act on the river then you know whether others have raised or not...

[DeuceKicker]

I think the pot is too small, your position is not good, and there are too many in the hand to call the river.

[hogua]

Totally agree... can't call the river here.

That may be different if you bet the flop and/or turn and pickup up some info. Otherwise there's to many ways to lose as the other players could have anything (2,7,9, pocket pair, two clubs with an A or K)
Plus you're out of position.

Check and be happy to take a small pot if you win. Check and be happy if someone turns overs a full house.

[mmbt0ne]

Ok, here was my thinking on the hand. Anything that beats me will probably raise. However, anything that raises definitely beats me (does that make sense?) so I can fold to a raise.

However, there are more hands that call 2 cold and beat me than don't raise and beat me, saving me a bet when I'm behind. Also, nothing that beats me is going to fold if I raise the river, which is the main reason I didn't.

Add that to the obvious fact that if I raise and get 3-bet I am also obviously beat and have to fold, and I figured a call put me in the best position to either win the pot, or lose the least.

[cmwck]

Would this hand fall into the category of "When You Don't Want Overcalls"?

The idea being that there's a decent chance you have the one bettor beat, but you want to raise to get a possible better hand than yours to fold behind you (perhaps someone holding a 2, fearing you have a 9).

But, with this tiny pot you don't loose much by folding.

Would this be correct reasoning?

[mmbt0ne]

Come on, there is plenty more discussion that can be had with this hand, I think. I didn't post it because I though it was 100% correct, or 100% obvious to go a certain other way.

People here have gotten in the unfortunate habit of posting what they think the play is, but not expounding upon that play, and try to explain why they think what they think. No one is getting any better if we just talk about 'do this, do that.' There needs to be some sort of strategic discussion behind why moves are made, that's what makes SS, and Mid-High such good forums to read.

[wabe]

The more I look at this, the more it grows on me.

I like the call on the river as well. I think SB would have tried to take a shot with a 9 or 2 before. I don't think he has a 7, either, or he would've bet the turn. I think he's got overcards and is looking for the easy takedown of the pot.

The only worry I might have at this point is that he checked through with KcXc looking for his flush draw as well.

[prrthd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
definitely bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhhhhh..........no thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think betting the turn would be a good idea, also. Could you explain why you would not want to bet the turn when you have overcards and a flush draw? On the flush draw you are betting for value, correct?

[SeeWillie]

Knowing what happened after your river decision may be skewing the advice here. A raise behind is a definite possibility with this board, and I really don't want to pay another BB to show down.

The pot is 3.5 BB to you. I don't think you can expect everyone behind you to overcall, even at .50/1. In other words, if the pot gets much bigger, you are sunk. I don't lose any sleep over a fold, even if I threw away the best hand.

[mmbt0ne]

I'm folding if it's raised behind me, so please don't let that factor into your decision. I don't want to raise, because hands that beat me will still call, and almost no hands I beat will call, and I'll have to fold to a 3-bet.

[mmbt0ne]

I almost surely have the best draw on the turn, however, I don't have equity for a bet because any K-hi or A-hi has me beat right now.

[SeeWillie]

You may be counting too many outs if you think this is a value raise. The 3rd-nut flush isn't necessarily going to win the pot enough to make this a value raise. Some other overcards are out there too, so you could spike your pair and spew chips to KJ, KQ (or even AQ or AJ if up against passive preflop players). In other words, discount your outs.

You might raise to protect your overcards, but you aren't chasing the A/images/graemlins/club.gif or K/images/graemlins/club.gif out, and the pocket pairs and 9s might stay in it as well.

[SeeWillie]

Thanks for the reply. I agree that a raise is a poor choice. Not trying to argue, just to learn - why wouldn't the possibility of a raise behind affect your decision to call? If you are not concerned with losing one bet, then isn't calling and folding to a raise the obvious choice?

[LowDown22]

I agree with your reasoning. I would've called in this spot folding to any raise. Even though the pot is kind of small, I don't want to throw away what could very well be the best hand. I only have to be right 1 out of 3.5 times at most. The bet could be from a smaller flush or the occasional Ace. I definitely would not raise here.

[mmbt0ne]

At the time, it was really hard to put anyone in the hand on a range of holdings. I really couldn't see a 9 or a 7 being out there since the action had been straight checks up to the river. Also, I think that there is at least a decent chance that anyone with a pocket pair &lt;9 would've bet after the flop checked through and a 2 hit on the turn.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
If you are not concerned with losing one bet, then isn't calling and folding to a raise the obvious choice?


[/ QUOTE ]

This was my thinking. I'm trying to figure out if my willingness to lose one bet was right here though.

[droolie]

I fold this. You're 3.5:1 with the very real possibility of having to fold. If there weren't 3 more players yet to act I call it. Againt 4 players I just don't think you find all of them have missed the boat and you get to showdown and win 25% of the time. The pot is small and I don't mind at all if I'm wrong.

[mmbt0ne]

See, I agree with this too. Honestly if ANY aggression had been shown up until this point in the hand, I would've dumped it. The fact that no one ever bet until the river is what made this hard for me.

[phredd]

[ QUOTE ]
[N]othing that beats me is going to fold if I raise the river, which is the main reason I didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the key. It seems obvious to me that you are correct: nothing out there that can beat you will fold to your raise, and only a few hands out there will call the raise. The vast majority (all?) of those that will call two will beat you, unless you have specific reads to the contrary. So you can't raise.

So the only issue is call or fold. You can't fold, because with the third nut flush and absolutely no action, there's a very good chance here that you are ahead.

Therefore, you call. Well-played.

Is it just me, or is this not an especially difficult decision?

[SlantNGo]

Any piece of the board or a PP will beat you, and you're in the worst possible position... you'd hate to see a raise behind you. Factor in that it's a small pot, I fold.

[phredd]

[ QUOTE ]
Any piece of the board or a PP will beat you...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but if someone had a PP or a piece of the board, why didn't they bet the turn? They are a 4:1 favorite against the flush. My concern here is that SB is possibly the guy who has it, since he may have been afraid to bet a small pair into the field on the turn. My concern with the trailers is the overflush, but that's pretty rare. For the pocket- or board-pair they had their shot and checked it.

I think this hand is good more than 3.5:1 here, and I call.

[Jingleheimer]

[ QUOTE ]
I almost surely have the best draw on the turn, however, I don't have equity for a bet because any K-hi or A-hi has me beat right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

?

You have four opponents. You have 9 flush outs + between 0 and 6 QJ outs (let's just say 3) for top pair.

At 12 outs you are 2.8:1 and you have about 26% equity. You make money whenever you get 3 callers or more. I think you can make a good case for a turn bet. Folding AQ AJ KQ and AJ would be sweet too.

J

[mmbt0ne]

What do you think the chances of getting 3 callers on the turn are? I'm not thinking they're very good, which is why I would rather not bet.

[Entity]

I would raise preflop quite often here.

On the flop, the check is standard. Once no one has shown interest I'm tempted to take a shot at it on the turn, but it depends on who you are up against.

As is, with a 2.5BB pot on the river, you're taking a reasonable shot that no one else has any piece of it, and I think the call-fold-to-raise line is ok, but I'm not sure that it's significantly better than just folding. Had you raised PF, I would probably call the river.

Rob