Call here or wait for better?

[mackthefork]

Straight forward easy call? The way I saw it I might well have been isolated by the EP raiser and it could be a good chance to treble up.

PokerStars Turbo

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t4385)
MP1 (t7245)
MP2 (t980)
CO (t3005)
Hero (t595)
SB (t635)
BB (t4120)
UTG (t6035)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t1200</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls t570 (All-In), SB calls t410 (All-In), <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Mack

[pooh74]

Is this a two table SNG? anyway, i would wait here...what happened on your blinds? did u fold then? U have a few "free" hands (i know stars has antes) before u get blinded out and i think u could pick a better spot than by calling an UTG raiser who isnt stealing from that position..good chance youre dominated..."if" you had him heads up for sure than it would be better yet still not ideal(u were bb closing action)

[curtains]

It's a bad call. You are almost sure to have a better situation than this.

[Scuba Chuck]

With all the postive feedback you provide to posters here, I'm surprised you have the balls to ask this question.

[johnnybeef]

yes, at some point you will have to gamble with a short stack.

edit, never mind i thought that the 520 was what you had before you posted the blind, i changed my answer. emphatically.

[curtains]

If you never get any reasonable hands and you have no fold equity, it's generally best to wait until your Big Blind.

If you do this, and end up winning on your BB, you'll come out of it with about 1300-1400 chips, but the best thing is that you won't have to pay your Big blind for quite a few more hands and may have some steal equity after you pay your small blind.

A lot of times when people are shortstacked they just stuff their money in with any 2, and this is just a terrible way to play it, because a lot of the time when you win, you will be still be committed on your Big Blind very soon anyway.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
If you never get any reasonable hands and you have no fold equity, it's generally best to wait until your Big Blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not always true. The point of doing what the OP did is that if nobody else calls you get more than 2-1 on your money, which is often pretty sweet odds. By waiting till your BB you more or less guarantee yourself even money pot odds.

However, the OP's hand is not a good spot to try this for a number of reasons. The raiser is UTG multi-way and likely has a pretty good hand. Hero still has quite a few hands to pick something up before he ends up in the BB. Finally, SB is desperately short-stacked and will often also go allin.

An example of a better situation is:

Blinds (150/300)

BigBoy (5700)
Hero (300)
SB (2000)
BB (2000)

BigBoy (UTG) raises allin.

As Hero here I would call with a very wide range. The big stack is likely bullying the other two stacks and probably doesn't have much of a hand. It more than likely isn't going to help me to wait until my BB. There's no chance in hell the other stacks are calling without a premium hand. You should definitely take the 2.5-1 pot odds on offer here and if you win you can try to make something happen with your newly acquired stack of 1050.

[curtains]

Yes okay, your example is a special situation and I agree with your analysis. I feel that people generally panic too soon though in these situations.

One thing I hate, that people seem to instinctively do a lot, is when people desperately put their chips in UTG or in early position with a weakish hand, when even if they somehow win they will be pot committed the very next hand in the BB. I know this isn't relevant to this hand, but I see it a lot.

In the given hand, if you somehow win with Q2 (assuming everyone folds) you have about 1700 chips, as opposed to having 1400 if you survive against one opponent in your BB. Q2 just isn't nearly strong enough in my opinion to justify gambling right now.

You did a much better job of explaining things than I did though.

btw ChrisV - what's the weakest hand you would play as the hero here?

[MagnoliasFM]

I'd play any two suited, any 1-gap or connector, any pair, and any two cards that are between 6 and 10. (this is just a rough guess)

[mackthefork]

Pooh74


Is this a two table SNG? anyway, i would wait here...what happened on your blinds? did u fold then? U have a few "free" hands (i know stars has antes) before u get blinded out and i think u could pick a better spot than by calling an UTG raiser who isn’t stealing from that position .good chance you’re dominated..."if" you had him heads up for sure than it would be better yet still not ideal(u were bb closing action)

My blinds were the last of the 100/200s and they were stolen I had very bad hands and was put in a squeeze both times, I understand domination is a danger but I think you are more likely dominated if you had QT here, a pair is a possibility though I suppose, but UTG was playing his stack appropriately which is very loose.

When I called I was calling 570 to win 25x8 antes =200 + 570 from UTG + 200 SB and 400 BB=1370 that’s 2.4/1 heads up if SB calls that increases to 3/1, I won’t say what they both had to prove a point as its really irrelevant and the likely ranges would probably take 3 days for poker stove to calculate.


Curtains


It's a bad call. You are almost sure to have a better situation than this.

UTG is the only person who is really raising to any degree this is likely my last small chance to get it heads up, that was my logic, I agree it’s marginal I would like you to show me why it’s wrong though. Most hands play themselves, these are the ones I still have trouble with.


Scuba Chuck


With all the positive feedback you provide to posters here, I'm surprised you have the balls to ask this question.

I’m not sure what this one means, I try to give good advice, I hope no one takes it wrong. I have over 1200 SNGs in my database now at 30%+ ROI, I have learned a lot from posters in this forum (stolen ideas from Strassa and PM).

I had 20 seconds to decide here and decided it was a must call, I can’t knowingly fold a perceived edge when my stack is so short.

As an example, would you fold in this situation.

UTG (5700)
UTG+1 (3200)
MP1 (3200)
Hero (600)
SB (4500)
BB (4500)

You have 74o on the button UTG is using his stack to good effect stealing once an orbit, the blinds are 300/600 with a 50 ante, UTG pushes all in the blinds are over tight all fold to you, call or fold.


ChrisV


However, the OP's hand is not a good spot to try this for a number of reasons. The raiser is UTG multi-way and likely has a pretty good hand. Hero still has quite a few hands to pick something up before he ends up in the BB. Finally, SB is desperately short-stacked and will often also go all-in.

The first argument I mention further up in this reply UTG was pretty much the only aggressor at the table much limping was going on he was raising fairly often, your second argument is clearly absolutely spot on, and I certainly did not take full account of how little extra he adds to the pot and how much he takes away from me by calling regardless of the cards he holds.

Regards Mack

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
what's the weakest hand you would play as the hero here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hard to say since I'm looking more for hand quality than high card strength. I would fold 94o and call 76o, but I don't know where the cutoff point is. There's a case that you should call any two, but I think that's slight overkill.

[mackthefork]

heres a good thread about pots odds calls, i like curtains reply best. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Pot odds and such (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/newreply.php?Cat=&amp;Board=singletable&amp;Number=1851193 &amp;page=2&amp;view=collapsed&amp;what=showthreaded&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14 )

Mack