Should I make a move?

[callmedonnie]

Table is a bit tight.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1190)
Hero (t790)
UTG (t740)
MP1 (t1895)
MP2 (t1230)
CO (t1395)
Button (t760)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t200</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls t150,

[Slim Pickens]

Unless you can put UTG on having at least one card lower than your 8's, fold this. Would he really make this bet with 77 or less, or A8 or less? Min raising from UTG is either a super-weak poor play or a nice trap. The SB calling further complicates things as it increases your chances someone's hiding a big pair. An excellent post-flop player might be able to call and push the flop if the high cards miss and SB checks, but I'm not that good, so I fold.

Slim

[UMTerp]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you can put UTG on having at least one card lower than your 8's, fold this. Would he really make this bet with 77 or less, or A8 or less? Min raising from UTG is either a super-weak poor play or a nice trap. The SB calling further complicates things as it increases your chances someone's hiding a big pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the small blind's presence makes this an easier push than if he wasn't in the hand. (Reread the section on the "squeeze play" in HOH. Harrington gives a great analysis there, along with a very good example from the 2003 WSOP. Or rewatch the WPT from last night and think about why Lee Watkinson pushed that Q8 3-handed.)

Whether or not I do push depends on the caliber of the initial min-raiseer though. It's certianly possible he's setting a trap, and this situation is awfully read-dependent because of that.

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
(Reread the section on the "squeeze play" in HOH. Harrington gives a great analysis there, along with a very good example from the 2003 WSOP.

[/ QUOTE ]


Right, but in that example, Sammy Farha was the initial raiser and Harrington comments that he knows Farha could be raising with a very wide range of hands and wants to play the pot against Lester heads-up. How wide a range of hands do you think UTG is raising with here?

I think there are times when a squeeze play is great to use, but this (and most other push-fold situations) is not.

[Slim Pickens]

Yeah. I thought about the squeeze play aspect to this. Can someone please tell me if I understand it correctly? Flame away if not.

UTG becomes somewhat more likely to fold with a player to act behind him than he would be if he were last to act. SB becomes very slightly more likely to call if UTG folds because of the added pot value from UTG's limp. Overall you are somewhat more likely to fold out both opponents "in series" on the same hand than you would be to have them fold "in parallel" on separate heads-up hands. Correct?

My impression is that never EVER want to be called in this situation. How often might someone call with 77 or less, or A8 or less? That would be even dumber than min raising with those hands in the first place. Getting called can pretty much be nailed into the loss column here. Maybe AK calls you and misses... at best. The total decision comes down to whether or not both opponents fold enough of the time to make this a +$EV play. My impression is that it's close, and I default close decisions in favor of survival. I'm new to this... my "close decision" range is still pretty big.

Oh, and that bit about calling and taking a flop is just to see if anybody thinks that could be a +EV play for an excellent player.

Slim

[wiggs73]

Yeah, you're on the right track with the squeeze play. The idea is say you think the raiser has a marginal hand for whatever reason. He gets re-raised. Instead of just calling the re-raise, you re-raise again. Now the original raiser is caught in a 'squeeze'. First off, he has to call 2 raises. Also, he can't know what the original re-raiser will do. He could fold / call / or re-raise again. Same applies for you. So in theory, he knows the pot could get quite large and will usually fold. Sometimes this works online, but certainly not at the limits I play at. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Again, as for this specific example, you can't really apply a squeeze play, because if Hero does decide to push, he has UTG covered anyway. So it's all-in or nothing for him, and consequently, he doesn't have to think about getting re-raised again and again. That's why I said it usually doesn't apply when someone pushes. You lose the possibility of a re-raise later, which is what the squeeze play is founded on.

[wiggs73]

And after all the talk about a squeeze play, which I don't think applies here, I would agree with Slim's original assessment and say fold. I have to say the min-raise UTG looks odd considering his short stack. I think he would be pushing a marginal hand here and this min-raises screams "Please someone put me all-in", at least to me.

Even if he is playing a marginal hand, he will have about the right odds to call you and like Slim said, the only hands that will have you looking at better than a coinflip would be 77 and under and A6 and under. Tempting to push when you see a pair here, but I say fold. I think with your stack, a raiser, and a caller, you don't have quite the hand or the fold equity you need to make pushing a good play.

[swarm]

hmmm...

I usually don't like to get into a potential 3-way pot with 88... However this situation I may want to take the gamble. Reason Being, Your 7 handed at level 4 and your shortstacked, you can't even sniff the money yet. How close are you to level 5??

What level is this at the 20 and 30's I have seen min-raises here with A10 etc..., I wouldn't be all that surprise if you pushed and he folded but you were called by the SB with KJ. However, you have to trust your read on whether he would limp with a monster UTG, I know I probably would. It's very player specific. Very Obvious that SB is on a drawing hand, maybe just one A with a weak kicker.

At the very least I may call the flop (100 to get into a 600 pot with major implied odds if you hit a set), HOPE FOR A SET, And if the flop comes ragged, then you have another decision to make.

You have to double up by the end of the next rotation with your stack size if you fold. If this was 5 handed or less I would certainly fold but with so many players still in it I may choose to gambool... your almost guaranteed to get called by one player if you push though so at best your coin flipping.

[Seadood228]

Shortstacked and 7 handed I like a push IF you think UTG is incapable of setting a trap with a monster hand.

Looks like a good time to gamble..

[bweiser8311962]

I call and then play the flop. If UTG has Kings or Aces and you flop a set, you take all his money. If you don't hit your set and someone pushes, you fold with 590 still in your pocket.

[callmedonnie]

I pushed , was called by UTG and the other guy folded. He had AQ (I couldn't believe he limped UTG w/ AQ) and he won the race.

[curtains]

Pretty sure you say he raised to 200 UTG?

[Strollen]

Your right Curtain, UTG did raise. I assume that the correct play with his short stack &lt;10x BB is to push with his AQ here?

[curtains]

I would generally push with AQ there, yes

[callmedonnie]

Sorry, he did raise. I was confused. I may have put a stronger raise with that hand if I were him though. I thought this push was fine. Any other opinions. At times you just have to run a race and hope to the coin hits you. I thought with my eights here that this was the time to do that.

[curtains]

I don't like moving allin, I think you are getting called by an UTG raise here almost every time.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like moving allin, I think you are getting called by an UTG raise here almost every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what? You're getting almost 2 to 1 on your money. I'll take coinflips with UTG all day here. Occasionally he's slowplaying a big pair here but mostly not. If you fold down to 690 (and then 640 after SB) you're usually faced with the choice between running a couple of steals with garbage or getting into deep trouble when blinds increase. I'll take the 2 to 1, thanks.

[curtains]

I don't mind coin flip, but when certain players min raise UTG for 33% of their stack, I get very scared. Let's just say that if you catch me doing that, you aren't a coinflip with your 88. But ok probably against a random partypoker player, you are fine.