I flop TPTK but I'm facing an all-in

[billyjex]

I just remembered about this hand and figured I'd post it because it was a tough decision for me.

PokerRoom $109 qualifier to their grand ($1000+0) tournament. It's still the first level. There's only 27 players, top two get seats. Everyone has to buy in directly, so the competition is pretty decent.

I am on the BB with about 1550 chips. Pretty much everyone in this hand has 1500 chips as it's still very early.

I am dealt A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Blinds 10/20.

UTG+1 raises to 100. Four coldcallers, and I call.

Flop is Q 6 3, one of my suit. I check, planning to check/raise all in if I get the chance. Should I just bet out here?

Anyways, UTG+1 instapushes for about 1400, and it's folded back to me.

Pot is about 2100, and I have 1450 left.

Do I call or fold?

[DemonDeac]

easy fold
u might even want to consider mucking this preflop with an UTG 5xBB raise (even though its early) and ur out of position. but id prolly call this preflop cuz im a sucker and they're soooooted
wait for a better spot

[Cleveland Guy]

I gotta think hard about folding here.

It looks a lot to me like this player has AA or KK.

I am guessing he was probably pissed by 4 or 5 cold calls to his 5x BB opening bet, and doesn't want to let it get checked around so someone can draw out against him.

Its still early, doubling up here doesn't guarantee you a a seat, or really doesn't even come close, where as if you lose you are out.

I am also very bothered by your call/check from the BB.

with AQs - against that many cold callers, I don't know if I like just calling pre-flop, and if I would I think this is a great chance to lead out.

But I think a better pre-flop play is to raise or fold.

[billyjex]

Is a call that bad here? We have a big multiway pot brewing and maybe I can hit the flop hard and get alot of chips -- But i ended up just flopping TPTK and I didn't know what to do.

[juris]

[ QUOTE ]
Is a call that bad here? We have a big multiway pot brewing and maybe I can hit the flop hard and get alot of chips -- But i ended up just flopping TPTK and I didn't know what to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

AQ is not a great hand in a 5 way multi-pot. Do you see why?

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
Is a call that bad here? We have a big multiway pot brewing and maybe I can hit the flop hard and get alot of chips -- But i ended up just flopping TPTK and I didn't know what to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you answered your own question.

Being out of position, early in a tournament, with 5 to the flop - what are you hoping to see here?

Axx - with the xx both being hearts?

[Dentist]

I would have definitely called with the pot odds out there.

Those recommending a pre-flop fold are incorrect IMHO.

However, the player who made the raise probably wasn't expecting 4 cold callers and now he doesn't want to see the hand go any further... so he pushed. likely with better than top pair.. but definitlely not something as strong as a set.

I would fold, but feel like leading out would have given you better information.

That being said... you did say you intended to check-raise which is a powerful move when you don't have position. Thus, the individuals bet was very odd and he played any type of hand pretty strangely.

I suspect AA, or KK... but somehow AK wouldn't surprise me.

[KingMedicine]

im thinking easy call with 5-1 odds preflop, unlike most of the thread, even out of position. With 5 people to act, i think leading out with a bet of about 400 is right. thatll put preflop raiser to the test. if he pushes, youre most likely up against an overpair and its time to fold.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
im thinking easy call with 5-1 odds preflop, unlike most of the thread, even out of position. With 5 people to act, i think leading out with a bet of about 400 is right. thatll put preflop raiser to the test. if he pushes, youre most likely up against an overpair and its time to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great way to lose a third of your stack extremely early.

It's one thing to call a microraise with this hand and another to call a big raise and wind up in the middle of a *flop* t500 pot with it.

[multifast1]

Yep, marginal call pre-flop really. Think about it.. what kind of boards are you going to win with? A high board and good chance you lose to AK or Ax,2pr .Q high board and you're wondering of KK or AA is out there. Either way you're going to commit plenty more chips to find out if your top pair are good. Now a nut flush would be nice but unless you flop that or the straight (go ahead and calculate the odds of it) you're going to pay dearly to draw it out on turn and/or river with a pre-flop raise and 4 callers in this type tourney.

[Cleveland Guy]

I didn't say you had to fold Pre - Flop. I would have thought of raising it up. Trying to either see if the UTG wants to push pre-flop, or narrow the field.

I think the call here is just bad cause you never know where you are in the hand.

I try and avoid multi-way pots early in a tourney cause I don't have any reads yet. I also want that tight aggresive image - and calling 100, then folding does not give me that image.

[Brad F.]

Without reading results or the other posts, this all-in seems completely desparate to me. If he has kings or aces and he's buying in 100 dollars I would assume that he'd try and at least extrapolate some chips from you. If he had a set, he'd slowplay in all liklihood. I would almost say that it's an underpair such as jacks maybe.

We are seeing more in more in bigger buy-ins folks going all-in with great hands in wierd places to confuse us thinkers. On a rainbow flop like this with now draws to really speak of this all-in seems like a desparation bet to me.

Brad

[Bill Poker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is a call that bad here? We have a big multiway pot brewing and maybe I can hit the flop hard and get alot of chips -- But i ended up just flopping TPTK and I didn't know what to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you answered your own question.

Being out of position, early in a tournament, with 5 to the flop - what are you hoping to see here?

Axx - with the xx both being hearts?

[/ QUOTE ]

how about xxx all hearts?

[iRoD]

I disagree with the people on this post that are saying that they are calling taking 5-1 pot odds with AQ from the BB. I feel like this is an easy place to get in trouble for a decent chunk of your stack early.

When taking the pot odds aren't the hands you want to play basically pocket pairs? They typically won't get you in much trouble as you either hit your flop or don't. I would think you have great implied odds if you hit your set, and you might even double.

That being said, once you hit your Q high flop I like your check raise line but the push from the original raiser obviously slows you down. Looks like KK or AA to me...

I guess you don't have many reads on the table as its only the first level, which is a further reason to sit this hand out. I'd fold preflop and probably to the push on the flop.

Cheers, Pat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[betgo]

If UTG+1 has AA or KK, why does he overbet push on the flop? Still, it is difficult to call here.

Obviously, this is one of the better flops you are going to get.

I would call preflop, particularly since you are suited. Having a suited ace is big as it may give you a nut flush or nut flush draw. High cards don't play well 5-handed, but suited hards do. I would rather have 22 in this situation preflop, but AQs is a big hand. I think folding it preflop is tight.

[joeboe2001]

Everyone has to buy in directly, so the competition is pretty decent.


I think the fact that everyone has to buy in reflects wealth, not skill. Even if it does portend skill, all that means is that more people are more likely to be playing according current wisdom.

Your only read on your opponent seems to be that he has enough money to pay for this tournament--you have no choice but to believe him. That said, you have no choice but to fold, unless you think your chances of having/pulling a winning hand are about 75%. You have a small chance of getting another Q, a small chance of pulling a flush, and a slightly larger chance of getting 2 pair, though the A that gives you 2 pair may well give him a set.

I think anyone that would call this falls in your category of "shouldn't be playing a $100 tournament." I would be patient and wait for a better situation to risk all my chips.

[tiger7210]

I see nothing wrong with flat calling with AQs out of position here. Without any reads you have to give UTG 5x BB raise some respect as well as 4 others cold calling behind. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if raiser has JJ/TT/AKs but AA/KK is certainly possible even though a 5x BB raise seems pretty stiff for such a big pair. His push on the flop would be a very bold bluff with 3 others still to act in the hand. My best guess is he has AQ/KQ and figures nobody has AA/KK's without a reraise PF and is semibluufing. Really the only hands that certainly call are a set and even AQ is a difficult decision as you found out. If you had 4 to the flush I'm calling but with only a backdoor flush draw and possibly only 5 other outs if he doesn't have AA's I'm folding here and not happy about it. Without any reads its too early for me to call off my whole stack. It's certainly one of those hands where you are either way ahead or way behind.

[billyjex]

I would call PF here again.. I don't see the harm in taking a flop if I could get away with...

TPTK. Which I couldn't. I think the hands he's pushing here are AA, KK, AK, or a small chance of JJ. I think I hit call without really evaluating the situation, his push did look fishy to me like he had AK and was trying to buy the pot.

He had KK. Not really worth the risk to call here so early.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say you had to fold Pre - Flop. I would have thought of raising it up. Trying to either see if the UTG wants to push pre-flop, or narrow the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's, like, REALLY bad. Go ahead and reraise to 300 and watch UTG push; can you call? Better yet, let's say he just calls, along with 1 or 2 of the momos behind him. How many flops do you now like out of position for 20% of your stack? Can you completely rule out that he's just called AK (I would in his spot?)

It's a $100 tourney. They're not great but it's not 10+1 on Party.

[ QUOTE ]
I see nothing wrong with flat calling with AQs out of position here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said the same thing in a very long thread in the SNG forum about a similar hand. The two major differences? It was a low buyin, and more importantly, the UTG raise was to 40.

The size of the pot makes a very big difference in this hand. Yes, this is a fishy bet if he has aces, and yes, with no read you may have to grit your teeth and hope he only has jacks or KQ or AK. But the pot is so big on the flop that you are tying yourself to it when you only flop an A or (especially) a Q, and that's why you have got to fold in the first place.

[betgo]

I might have called here. He is playing KK strangely with the 5xBB raise preflop and the push on the flop. Villain may not be that strong a player and thinks he should make a big bet with a big hand. The fact that he got 4 callers preflop shows that the play is kind of loose passive this early even at $100 buyin. Maybe villain thought his big bets would get action, and obviously they did.

[JaBlue]

Calling AQs here preflop is certainly not bad. The people that are telling you it is are clearly wrong.

UTG+1's all-in is the only bet that can be made here. Its not out of the wack. Even so, if you call you're just praying to split. Just muck it.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1's all-in is the only bet that can be made here. Its not out of the wack. Even so, if you call you're just praying to split. Just muck it.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is 500 is the pot everyone has about 1400. Why not just bet 300-400 with KK and push on the turn? I don't see the purpose of overbet and don't agree it's the only play.

Villain has been betting like, "Hey, I have a big pair! Get out of my way!" And everyone has been ignoring what he is saying. I would raise 3xBB or limp UTG+1 with KK.

When villain pushes, unless he is reckless, the only hands he could have logically overbet that way preflop and on the flop are AQ and KK.

[quote

[/ QUOTE ]

AQ is not a great hand in a 5 way multi-pot. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you can elaborate. Why?

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AQ is not a great hand in a 5 way multi-pot. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you can elaborate. Why?


[/ QUOTE ]

AQ wins often with top pair top kicker or good kicker or ace high. 5-way, someone is likely to make a bigger hand.

With AQs, you are also playing for the nut flush, which negates this somewhat.

Jennifer Harmon's section in SS2 says not to raise with AQo or AJo in late position in a limit game if there are already 4 people in the pot, because they play well multiway. I think she is thinking of a 100/200+ game where you are up against all Sklansky level 3-6 hands. If a bunch of fish have limped in, I am raising with AQo.

I think the same goes for NL. If you think the people ahead of you will call a raise with a weak hand that AQ may dominate, then more reason to call.