Do the deeper stacks turn me into a weak/tight player? [Archive]

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vanHelsing

03-03-2005, 12:10 PM

Opponent plays too many hands, his PFR was reasonable at 10 or 12%, postflop somewhere between 1-2.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($107.35)
UTG ($423.25)
MP ($126.5)
Button ($129.79)
Hero ($102.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.5.
1 fold, MP calls $1, Button calls $1, Hero (poster) raises to $6, 1 fold, MP folds, Button calls $5.

Flop: ($14) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $9, Button raises to $90, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $113

I am sure I would have called with 50BB stacks.
This could easily be a semi bluffed 4 flush or even just TP. While it often meant trouble, the odds you had 2 days ago, would have led me to tend to call a typical loose party player.
Now, with the deeper stacks, I fold this. Standard?

Raiser

03-03-2005, 12:24 PM

I think this is standard? I guess I'm not sure since I'm new to deep stacks too. But it seems like all the mid/high limit posters are always talking about keeping the pot small with one pair hands, so looks good.

I know what you mean about feeling weak/tight with the new blinds. I feel the same way so far.

vanHelsing

03-03-2005, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know what you mean about feeling weak/tight with the new blinds. I feel the same way so far.

[/ QUOTE ]
Feels good to know I am not alone in the dark /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

ScottTheFish

03-03-2005, 12:46 PM

Losing your stack with one pair sucks, even if it's Aces. Maybe I'm weak but I'm folding without a solid read he pushes with top pair and draws.

Ojo_Rojo

03-03-2005, 01:02 PM

I probably would call this.

I am assuming the villain would raise preflop with QQ, and I could also see him playing flush/straight draws in this way. Do you think his push on the flop screams a set?

In the worst case, where youre up against a set - you do have outs, about 15% equity in this pot - not alot but its something... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Ojo_Rojo

twomarks

03-03-2005, 01:02 PM

I've been playing at UB where the stacks have always been 100 bb, however, I'm playing at a lower limit than you so my take may not apply. But here goes...

I can't imagine that this guy would call a 5xbb raise with Q3, Q4, or not raise with QQ, other than he's playing at Party. Therefore, I would push with this and if you get outdrawn, so be it.

My thought process about the hand above notwithstanding, my gut says, "If I'm not going to make this guy pay for drawing to a flush with AA, then I need to go back to limit".

Flaws in this logic are certainly welcome to be identified.

GL,

twomarks

Ghazban

03-03-2005, 01:06 PM

Why is there no mention of 33 or 44 as his hole cards in your analysis?

twomarks

03-03-2005, 01:13 PM

Fair enough. Do you get a lot of callers with small PP's with a 5xbb raise at 6 handed? If you do, then that makes things a little more tricky, but I don't see it happening that much at the 10 handed tables I play. Or I just haven't really run into that problem just yet.

twomarks

kurto

03-03-2005, 01:16 PM

"Do you get a lot of callers with small PP's with a 5xbb raise at 6 handed?" I would call that raise anytime with a small pp so long as the raiser or other players have a full stack.

jhall23

03-03-2005, 01:20 PM

33 and 44 seem like the most likely made hand. With no raise PF I think QQ,KK are out. Other possibility could be 56c for the straight and flush draw and you would be behind that as well but have the odds to call. I think that unless I had a good read I have to lay this down. Sucky situation since your hand is pretty defined and it's hard to gauge what he might have.

Ghazban

03-03-2005, 01:22 PM

For 5% of my stack, I'll call a raise with a small pocket pair at just about any table (10-max, 6-max, whatever). If anything, most small stakes players call too many raises with small pairs in the hopes of flopping sets. Calling off a small portion of your stack with a small pair is an excellent play if you can win a large pot when you hit.

twomarks

03-03-2005, 01:32 PM

I think I understand, but could you explain how most small stakes players call too many raises with small PP's at the same time that it's an excellent play?

Do you mean you only call a 5% raise if you have a chance to double through? If you don't have a chance to double up, then what percentage of your stack to you require your opponent to have in order to call the raise?

Thanks,

twomarks

Al P

03-03-2005, 01:53 PM

Since it's 7.5:1 against flopping a set, when you do flop you'll sometimes lose, and when you do flop you sometimes won't double through, getting 20:1 on your call allows you to show a profit.

10:1 or less (10%+ of stack) is often risky because so many times you take down just a small pot - that's where people lose money (when calling a raise).

Ghazban

03-03-2005, 01:58 PM

I mean that they call them when they don't have odds to make a set. The odds of flopping a set are 7.5:1 (or close to that, someone correct my math if I'm off) so, if you can get in 7.5 times as much as the original raise after the flop, you break even on the times you flop a set versus the times you don't.

Of course, this assumes a couple things that won't always be true. Namely, that 1) your opponent will pay you off and 2) your set will still be good by the river. These things won't always be true of course (for example, will AsKs really pay off your 4c4s set on a 6h5h4h board?) so its better to use a slightly larger factor in practice. In their book, Ciaffone and Rueben use the 5/10 rule for this, which is: If the preflop raise is less than 5% of your stack and you have a small pocket pair, always call. If its greater than 10% of your stack (or the stack of the PF raiser, whichever is smaller) , always fold. Between 5 and 10, use your best judgment.

The reason I say people call too much is because I've seen lots of people at the Party games (under the old 50xBB structure) call off 20% or more of their stack with a small pair hoping to flop a set. They can't make enough when they hit to cover the times they don't.

kurto

03-03-2005, 02:04 PM

"10:1 or less (10%+ of stack) is often risky because so many times you take down just a small pot - that's where people lose money (when calling a raise)." Its true. Though hidden sets against a preflop raiser are often your biggest moneymakers. Also... oftentimes its not headsup... when you hit, you have to figure in the number of times you'll have more then one person making a stab at the pot.

For instance... recently, I called a preflop raise 5xbb with 5 seeing the flop... flopped top set (with a little under a full stack)... there was a bet, a call, and a raise all before it got to me. By the end there was 3 allins and some other dead money in the pot... Final pot was about ~300BBs.

Huge wins like those balance out the times you call raises with PP and don't hit as well as the times you hit and might lose the hand.

joewatch

03-03-2005, 02:23 PM

I don't think a fold here is weak/tight. I think it's the right play.

vanHelsing

03-03-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I say people call too much is because I've seen lots of people at the Party games (under the old 50xBB structure) call off 20% or more of their stack with a small pair hoping to flop a set. They can't make enough when they hit to cover the times they don't.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. And that's a point where the new structure makes the fish play much better.
But I actually don'tcare, if I am able to squeeze out additional ev on other occasions.
Should be attainable after adopting to the new game. But first we have to understand if/how the fish adjust.

BradleyT

03-03-2005, 03:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"10:1 or less (10%+ of stack) is often risky because so many times you take down just a small pot - that's where people lose money (when calling a raise)." Its true. Though hidden sets against a preflop raiser are often your biggest moneymakers. Also... oftentimes its not headsup... when you hit, you have to figure in the number of times you'll have more then one person making a stab at the pot.

For instance... recently, I called a preflop raise 5xbb with 5 seeing the flop... flopped top set (with a little under a full stack)... there was a bet, a call, and a raise all before it got to me. By the end there was 3 allins and some other dead money in the pot... Final pot was about ~300BBs.

Huge wins like those balance out the times you call raises with PP and don't hit as well as the times you hit and might lose the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

In your case you had plenty of callers. That's an easy 10% call.

kurto

03-03-2005, 03:22 PM

" But first we have to understand if/how the fish adjust."

The fish won't adjust. Its the non-fish sitting at your table that you have to worry about.

vanHelsing

03-03-2005, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The fish won't adjust.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess you're right.
2 hands from the last 20 min., different opponents and it's not even peak time:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($121.2)
BB ($166.75)
UTG ($161)
MP ($114.65)
CO ($115.05)
Hero ($100.3)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6, SB (poster) calls $5.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $5, MP folds.

Flop: ($20) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $15, SB calls $15, UTG folds.

Turn: ($50) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $25, SB calls $100.20 (All-In), Hero calls $54.30 (All-In).

River: ($229.50) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $229.50

Results in white below: 
SB has Jc 2c (one pair, jacks).
Hero has Qh Qc (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $208.60. SB wins $20.90. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($100.65)
UTG ($66.63)
MP ($181.37)
CO ($101.35)
Button ($50)
Hero ($108)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.5.
1 fold, MP calls $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, Hero (poster) raises to $5.5, 1 fold, MP calls $5, Button calls $5.

Flop: ($19) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $15, MP calls $15, Button folds.

Turn: ($49) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $30, MP calls $30.

River: ($109) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $45, Hero calls $45.

Final Pot: $199

Results in white below: 
MP has Qc 4c (one pair, sixes).
Hero has Kh Ah (two pair, kings and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins $199. 

But I must admit, I usually do not feel comfy when my pot sized bet is called and I just have a pair and still a good portion of my stack to go.

Probably next thing to do is removing the TV from my playing room. You really have to get strong reads.

kurto

03-03-2005, 03:46 PM

boy... this really convinces me I'm at the wrong site. Though there's plenty of horrendous play at Pokerstars... I'm not sure its proportional to the play at PP.

The problem with the blind change is figuring out who's smart enough to have adjusted and who hasn't. If you have notes on who the fishes are, they're still going to be fishes regardless of the structure.

The only thing... you will still get 'sucked out on'. Those suckouts could be more expensive. But then you should make more off the fishes as well.

Your real challenge is to figure out who the players are who know the added value of deep stacks/implied odds that have been opened up. Those are the players you'll want to slow down with.

TheWorstPlayer

03-03-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($100.65)
UTG ($66.63)
MP ($181.37)
CO ($101.35)
Button ($50)
Hero ($108)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.5.
1 fold, MP calls $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, Hero (poster) raises to $5.5, 1 fold, MP calls $5, Button calls $5.

Flop: ($19) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $15, MP calls $15, Button folds.

Turn: ($49) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $30, MP calls $30.

River: ($109) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $45, Hero calls $45.

Final Pot: $199

Results in white below: 
MP has Qc 4c (one pair, sixes).
Hero has Kh Ah (two pair, kings and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins $199. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Beautiful, man. River is super standard, but we don't see inducing bluffs too often in hands posted on here. Hopefully people are doing it, but just not having it show up in posted hands for whatever reason (they are too standard?)

BobboFitos

03-03-2005, 04:57 PM

Hmmm. Interesting hand here.

Why would buttonraise so much? Well, what could button have?

6max, playing 5 handed, you would think he would reraise QQ. Especially PFR 10%. Q4 and Q3 even vs a player who plays too many hands are highly unlikely. So...

44, 33, and 34 are the only hands that are beating you. Would villain really make htat much of an overbet with a set?

Given you have the A /images/graemlins/club.gif it's unlikely he's semibluffing with a big club draw. So what else could he have?

He could have a smaller club draw.
He could have a low straight draw.
He could have a top-pair esque hand.
He could have a pure bluff. (Small %, but possible)

So...

[ QUOTE ]
Now, with the deeper stacks, I fold this. Standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know how standard this is because it's such a big overbet by Villain.

It's not that easy to outflop aces, and button's wicked big raise is very very fishy. I'm sure alot of people are advocating a fold here, based on the premise of 1 pair hands in 100xbb stacks, but just look at the flop. Only three legit hands are beating you.

I'd call, if he shows a better hand I'd note he makes massive overbets with nut-esque hands, and move on.

vanHelsing

03-03-2005, 05:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Beautiful, man. River is super standard, but we don't see inducing bluffs too often in hands posted on here. Hopefully people are doing it, but just not having it show up in posted hands for whatever reason (they are too standard?)

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, this drawheavy flop and the blank on the river just screamed for it.

vanHelsing

03-03-2005, 05:39 PM

Well, I wrote that he played too many hands. Actually he played 80% so far, but I didn't mention it, bc I only had about 18 hands so far. Later, after >100 hands, he still was at +80%.
He made this move another 2 or 3 times with other opponents, but never got called. I couldn't spot a lot of draws in those flops.
So in retro, I think it's very possible he hit a crappy 2 pair and was afraid to get sucked out.

But back to the point of the decision, where I didn't have reliable data. Yes, you might be right, the typical partyplayer loves to slowplay and I would do it in this situation as well. A set is a monsta and with position and a not too frightening board in a HU situation, with the opponent willing to do the betting, there is no reason to scare him out. Typical would be a call or minraise in case he hit a set.

So why didn't I call? Don't know. I was confused. 20 sec. can be so short and endless long at the same time.
I feared there is a good portion of holdings, where I was behind, but what I probably feared more, was the fishy feeling you have, when you call an exorbitant raise with an ordinary hand, just to discover you where miles behind when you sacrificed your stack.

BobboFitos

03-03-2005, 05:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So why didn't I call? Don't know. I was confused. 20 sec. can be so short and endless long at the same time.
I feared there is a good portion of holdings, where I was behind, but what I probably feared more, was the fishy feeling you have, when you call an exorbitant raise with an ordinary hand, just to discover you where miles behind when you sacrificed your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL yeah... I've been there.

Sometimes, though, you make a very marginal call only to discover they're the ones who are miles behind.