Placing 4th too often

[PokerFoo]

Can anyone help me with some 4 handed tourney strategy? I am consistantly going out in 4th place in sit-n-goes no matter if Im the leader, averaged stacked or short at this point.

During these stages the stakes are usually very high and there is a big raise every hand played. I never seem to get a button spot to steal because the early players are always in for a big raise and my blinds never to get the flop because Im facing a big raise and looking at rags. If I do come over the top I am often called by AX KX or QX and behind anyway. If Im first to act its just darn hard to raise with random rags and try to steal. I also find I get called often enough when I do come in and Im fit or fold on the flop. This justs make my sinking ship sink faster.

Do I just risk it all with an all in and hope to get a lucky bingo before the flop or do I try to bluff the flops when I have no pair no draw and hope the opponant missed and isnt willing to gamble?

The only times I manage to survive past 4th is by catching a monster hand pre flop and having it hold up. In those cases I usually take 2nd or first but this isnt happening often enough to make these profitable for me.

Help

[skipperbob]

I haven't been tortured by any 2+2er's for awhile, so I'm going to hazard a response.
Actually, I think your post is very relevant to this site; finishing 4th is a big problem for me, too.
I frequently find myself short-stacked w/ 4 to go; that's the result of playing tight/weak during the middle stages. Then, it's now a crapshoot between myself and 1 or 2 players with more chips. If the others know what they're doing (and most do @ $109's & $215's), they are going to tagteam me till I'm broke.
You mentioned that you go broke (4th) when you have lotsa chips; that should rarely happen, because you shouldn't be playing at all. If I'm the chip leader it's like Shabbat, "I sure as shoot don't gamble on Shabbat".
If you have average stack, then it's "push or fold".
O.K. Yugo, Irie, Scuba, Suited66's; Knock yourselves out /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Slim Pickens]

What buy in is this?

[ QUOTE ]
If I do come over the top I am often called by AX KX or QX and behind anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
If this is happening, someone is going to bust before you do if you've got any amount of patience...

Check out the AleoMagus guide to beating the 10+1's for the basic primer.

[dfscott]

As a relative newbie to SnGs myself (only 100 SnGs under my belt), I understand how you feel. If you're playing low-buyin PP (which most people are), you're likely in "push or fold" land on the bubble. It takes a whiIe to get used to throwing all your chips in there without a premium hand, but remember that you have a chance for them to fold first, then you might still suckout even if your dominated, so it's not as bad as it seems (recent history notwithstanding).

If you haven't read Aleo Magus' "Beating the PP 10+1" yet, do it. It will give you a security blanket and help you not feel so lost. Here's an excerpt applicable to this situation (it's a slightly modified version of the original -- I've added some comments from other posters here):

[ QUOTE ]

DOWN TO 4-5 PLAYERS
Never enter a raised pot without AA, KK, QQ, AK unless raiser has ½ your stack or less.
If a small raise to you, go all-in with these hands and call with a few others (AQ, JJ, TT,)
-experienced players can enter pots with less, but good judgment is necessary
-If short stacked on bubble, you want to be first in the pot; bet big (all-in with less than 10BB).
-If very shortstacked, push (if first in) with KT+, A7+, pairs
-Try to steal as cheaply as possible. 3xbb right away, then drop to 2xbb if the blinds keep folding.
-Steal with: pairs,Ax,BJ hands, suited connectors.
-Don't defend too much from SB, but be ready to reraise if people are stealing a lot with small raises and the BB isn't doing anything about it.
-Against min-raise, defend BB with any A, K, QJ, QT, JT, pair, or suited connector.
-Try to reraise rather than call. Calling doesnt really discourage blind stealers.
-If you are short stack, just try to get ahead of the other short stacks and stay there.


[/ QUOTE ]

One other thing that I'll do is steal with just about anything from the SB.

Of course, my ROI sucks, so take all this with a grain of salt. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[poboys]

A couple of simple, but effective things to consider.

- Play opposite of the table. If the table is tight, blind steal, if it's lose then wait for solid starting hands

- Try blind stealing in the mid levels so that you are not so short stacked.

- Attack the tightest player's BB.

[EarlCat]

[ QUOTE ]
If you haven't read Aleo Magus' "Beating the PP 10+1" yet, do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you find this?

[TStokes]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=602767& fpart=&PHPSESSID=

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't been tortured by any 2+2er's for awhile, so I'm going to hazard a response.
Actually, I think your post is very relevant to this site; finishing 4th is a big problem for me, too.
I frequently find myself short-stacked w/ 4 to go; that's the result of playing tight/weak during the middle stages. Then, it's now a crapshoot between myself and 1 or 2 players with more chips. If the others know what they're doing (and most do @ $109's & $215's), they are going to tagteam me till I'm broke.
You mentioned that you go broke (4th) when you have lotsa chips; that should rarely happen, because you shouldn't be playing at all. If I'm the chip leader it's like Shabbat, "I sure as shoot don't gamble on Shabbat".
If you have average stack, then it's "push or fold".
O.K. Yugo, Irie, Scuba, Suited66's; Knock yourselves out /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds about right to me. Playing on the bubble is all about context though. There really aren't hard and fast rules. You want to find whatever situations you can to maximize your FE and/or survival to 3rd place. If this means pushing from UTG with nothing, so be it. If this means coming over the top with a quite good but not ridiculously great hand, so be it. If this means folding until a small stack is blinded out -- that works too. If this means helping to knock the short stack out, go for it.

I'm still wrestling with making 'correct' decisions on the bubble and not missing or pressing any opportunities afforded to me.

FWIW with the big stack you shouldn't go out in 4th too much but at the same time, you should feel free to abuse the middle stacks who are waiting for shorty to bust. This is perhaps the largest FE scenario you can ever get in a SNG and over the logn run you will win a ton of chips in this way. In the short run it could mean busting in 4th after having a big stack when you run into a couple of middle stacks that catch hands.

Yugoslav
Whose big stack got halved holding 72o at some point yesterday and several hands later ended up 4th...and also has 20% 4th place finishes in his last 300...