AA against a LAG when the second K hits [Archive]

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TheWorstPlayer

03-03-2005, 05:34 AM

Villain is 80/27/7. Had a bigger stack but is in the process of losing it.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($25.1)
SB ($27.95)
Hero ($38.2)
UTG ($46.7)
MP ($74.2)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, Hero raises to $1.25, UTG folds, MP calls $1.25, SB folds.

Flop: ($3.50) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $4, MP calls $4.

Turn: ($11.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero ... ?

PoBoy321

03-03-2005, 05:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hero ... ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bets $8 and folds to a raise, otherwise check/calls a non-club river.

jimdmcevoy

03-03-2005, 05:51 AM

Yep, these are your two options. Given his stats I think I go for the check call line.

TheWorstPlayer

03-03-2005, 05:59 AM

I was under the impression that Po was saying I should bet and fold if raised, check if called. Are you saying that I shouldn't bet the turn at all?

PoBoy321

03-03-2005, 06:09 AM

I think that checking the turn is disastrous since you're begging the villain to either bluff you off a best hand, or just as bad, take a free card to hit his draw. Leading the turn keeps the pressure on the villain, which I think you have to do on this draw heavy board.

TheWorstPlayer

03-03-2005, 04:42 PM

Well, I'm not sure whether you are more afraid of getting bluffed at or more afraid of giving a free card, but I didn't really mind giving a free card here since unless he is on the flush draw (not too likely) it is 'way ahead or way behind'. So I checked to give him a chance to take a stab at it.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($25.1)
SB ($27.95)
Hero ($38.2)
UTG ($46.7)
MP ($74.2)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, Hero raises to $1.25, UTG folds, MP calls $1.25, SB folds.

Flop: ($3.50) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $4, MP calls $4.

Turn: ($11.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($11.50) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero...?

Well, he took the free card and the river blanked. Now what's my best play?

BobboFitos

03-03-2005, 04:46 PM

Po gave you solid advice

Given how you got to the river you should check again and call a bet.

TheWorstPlayer

03-03-2005, 04:52 PM

Can you explain a bit more why you would bet the turn? I'm not saying it's not good advice, but he mentioned two reasons:
1. Don't want to give a free card.
2. Don't want to get bluff off the best hand.

I wasn't worried about the free card, too much, because there was only the flush draw and it was heads up. I was pretty worried about getting bluffed off the best hand, so I thought check/call would be better than bet and fold to a raise because I thought he would bluff raise fairly often here but I didn't want to call a huge bet here for obvious reasons. So if I am going to call his turn bet when I check, then obviously I can't get bluffed off the best hand, whereas if I bet and fold to a raise it IS possible. Do you disagree with that, or are you just very worried about giving a free card?

neuroman

03-03-2005, 05:05 PM

I like leading with $8 on the turn. If he has a K, he'll probably raise you and you can let it go. My question is, if he just calls the $8 turn bet, do we put this guy on a flush draw and lead out again on the river for, say, $15 when a blank non-club lands? Or do we check/call the river, which seems safer? (E.g., maybe he has a K with a bad kicker?)

Wayfare

03-03-2005, 05:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I'm not sure whether you are more afraid of getting bluffed at or more afraid of giving a free card, but I didn't really mind giving a free card here since unless he is on the flush draw (not too likely) it is 'way ahead or way behind'. So I checked to give him a chance to take a stab at it.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($25.1)
SB ($27.95)
Hero ($38.2)
UTG ($46.7)
MP ($74.2)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, Hero raises to $1.25, UTG folds, MP calls $1.25, SB folds.

Flop: ($3.50) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $4, MP calls $4.

Turn: ($11.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($11.50) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero...?

Well, he took the free card and the river blanked. Now what's my best play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Choose between betting for value and check/calling a bluff. The latter is based on river aggression.

BobboFitos

03-03-2005, 05:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain a bit more why you would bet the turn? I'm not saying it's not good advice, but he mentioned two reasons:
1. Don't want to give a free card.
2. Don't want to get bluff off the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, the freecard that could hurt you is not necessarily a flush card. If he's very laggy, his hand range is VERY broad; so, he could have a gutshot, (playing the broadways) he could have something like middle pair, low pair, etc.

His flop call doesn't mean, based on him playing 80% (!!) of hands, top pair or flush draw.

Obviously, the turn is a scarecard for you, but if he is an aggressive LAG, and you check, he'll take the pot away. (Getting bluffed off the best hand) because you *cant* call a turn bet. (Because, as you commented to Bobby in a very good post, his turn bet might mean he'll commit the rest of his stack on the river; so if you were to call the turn, you are handcuffed to calling the river)

So, obviously giving a freecard to a 4 outer (gutshot) or 2 outer (mid pair / underpair) is no big deal, it's the fact that you wont make any more money but you stand to lose more if they hit.

Also, if villain does raise the turn, you can easily drop it. *Unless they're ballsy enough to turn semibluff when you easily could have AK and just tripped up, but this scenario is HIGHLY unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wasn't worried about the free card, too much, because there was only the flush draw and it was heads up. I was pretty worried about getting bluffed off the best hand, so I thought check/call would be better than bet and fold to a raise because I thought he would bluff raise fairly often here but I didn't want to call a huge bet here for obvious reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

If villain would bluffraise, then your line has alot of merit. I dont see alot of turn bluffraising into a card that EASILY could've helped you. Maybe you do.

I definately wouldnt worry about the freecard, either, as he most likely has 4ish outs, (or maybe 9, if he in fact has flush draw) but it's better to win this pot now then give away a ~10% chance of losing the pot + additional money where you stand to not gain anymore.

However, if Villain will bluff a busted gutdraw or something like that, check-calling down has more merit.

[ QUOTE ]
So if I am going to call his turn bet when I check, then obviously I can't get bluffed off the best hand, whereas if I bet and fold to a raise it IS possible. Do you disagree with that, or are you just very worried about giving a free card?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totally. If Villain has the moxy to bluff raise me I'm not betting this turn. it's just (in my experience) 97% of players can not bluffraise here. if this is one of the lucky 3%, well, then, your line is best, sir.

SeattleJake

03-03-2005, 05:26 PM

Was this late last night, around 2-3 Pacific Time?

jonnyUCB

03-03-2005, 05:33 PM

Villian cannot know the K did not help you as well.

DoomSlice

03-03-2005, 05:39 PM

Well, the times that he IS drawing, you're not making any more money off of it, and you lose it all when he hits. If he doesn't have the king he is going to be just as afraid of it as you are, so a bluff here would be pretty tricky/gutsy. Checking and check-calling will win you the least money possible. Betting out and seeing if he calls/raises will at least establish his strength and allow you to make a better decision on the river.

BobboFitos

03-03-2005, 06:04 PM

nice location. i got rejected from that !%(@)&_ school. =)

TheWorstPlayer

03-03-2005, 06:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Was this late last night, around 2-3 Pacific Time?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.

TheWorstPlayer

03-03-2005, 06:45 PM

OK, Rob: (First, off topic, where are you going in Boston? I'm from there, and it is the best place in the whole wide world. Trust me, I've been everywhere.)

OK, back on topic: This guy was VERY aggressive. I actually could see this guy bluff raising the second king since he seemed to be the type to actually realise the second king made it less likely that I had one. And if he wasn't bluffing, then he would fold, because if he believes I have the K, he is drawing pretty dead, probably (unless he's on the flush draw). So, against passive opponents, I agree that I might as well bet since if they raise I can drop it, but I didn't want to drop it against this guy so I checked the turn. He checked it through as you saw and I checked the river again (since, as Wayfare so aptly mentioned, that seems best against aggressive opponents). Here are the final results.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($25.1)
SB ($27.95)
Hero ($38.2)
UTG ($46.7)
MP ($74.2)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, Hero raises to $1.25, UTG folds, MP calls $1.25, SB folds.

Flop: ($3.50) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $4, MP calls $4.

Turn: ($11.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($11.50) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $5, Hero calls $5.

Final Pot: $21.50

Hero has As Ah (two pair, aces and kings).
MP has Td 9h (two pair, kings and nines).
Outcome: Hero wins $21.50.

So it seems like we are on the same page, basically. $8 seems like a pretty good amount to bet if you are willing to fold to a raise because you don't want to look weak and entice a bluff raise. But against an aggressive opponent, checking seems to be a bit safer. In fact, when I saw the results, I was very surprised that he didn't bet the turn. I think he had seen me make some tricky moves before (like check/raising the river with the nuts) and was afraid I was setting him up for a check/raise on the turn. When I checked the river again, he screwed up the courage to shoot for it.

BobboFitos

03-03-2005, 06:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, Rob: (First, off topic, where are you going in Boston? I'm from there, and it is the best place in the whole wide world. Trust me, I've been everywhere.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll PM ya

[ QUOTE ]
And if he wasn't bluffing, then he would fold, because if he believes I have the K, he is drawing pretty dead, probably (unless he's on the flush draw). So, against passive opponents, I agree that I might as well bet since if they raise I can drop it, but I didn't want to drop it against this guy so I checked the turn. He checked it through as you saw and I checked the river again (since, as Wayfare so aptly mentioned, that seems best against aggressive opponents). Here are the final results.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, when I saw the results, I was very surprised that he didn't bet the turn. I think he had seen me make some tricky moves before (like check/raising the river with the nuts) and was afraid I was setting him up for a check/raise on the turn. When I checked the river again, he screwed up the courage to shoot for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the river it doesn't make sense for him to bluff, because he has showdown value. (So he's going to beat AQ, AJ, etc that you "may" have)

NH, I think against this opponent this isthe optimum line, but as we (agree) vs a more passive opponent a bet on turn is good.

TheWorstPlayer

03-03-2005, 06:57 PM

Well, I kinda think that his river bet has to be a bluff, because I am definitely not going to call with ace high there so I think he was more trying to move me off of QQ-TT because if he put me on AQ/AJ, he would just check, right? But, given that he had a pair, I think he would read most people for AQ/AJ when they check the turn and would bet it since he is pretty aggressive, but I think he had seen me check/raise before and was nervous. Maybe not, though. Maybe that guy who asked me when this hand was is the villain in this hand and can chime in. Who knows? Anyways, thanks for the help. Looking forward to your PM. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

SeattleJake

03-03-2005, 07:08 PM

Figures. I was playing on my wife's account, the chick in yellow. Most of the hands I have questions on today, were from hands you won. It was my first foray into those tables yesterday -- previously was just doing sit-n-go's.

For what it's worth, earlier I'd asked the 70 stack if they had brown trout up in MI, and he said yes.

Well I'll appreciate any words of wisdom from you, and be sure to avoid you next time... no offense :-|

Sponger15SB

03-03-2005, 07:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Figures. I was playing on my wife's account, the chick in yellow.

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
Well I'll appreciate any words of wisdom

[/ QUOTE ]

Turn off the characters

SeattleJake

03-03-2005, 07:34 PM

Heh, yeah. I found it interesting when playing the 50pt free tournament, how much conversation there was directed at me. I told the chip leader that I wasn't female, but he didn't seem to listen/care -- he also pointed out that he'd been at the same table the whole tournament, and asked if anyone else had too, so...

There seemed to be a difference in the way some players play against the fem avatars -- less experienced players, i'm assuming. Slightly less eager to bust me out, but didn't give me as much credit as my bet called for some times. Who knows, maybe I was just self-conscious -- I did take pride in busting out the guy who called me a dumb broad earlier that round.

TheWorstPlayer

03-03-2005, 07:37 PM

I turn off the characters. Anyways, if you want to go through your thought process on this hand, I think it would be quite interesting. If you want to post some other ones where I was the villain and you had questions, I would be happy to go through my thought process on those.

jimdmcevoy

03-03-2005, 07:41 PM

Srry, what I meant was I would check/call the turn, and check/call the river unless the river was a club.

If it's a club, I think really hard and think about why the opponent bet exactly how much he bet on the turn and river.

BK_

03-03-2005, 07:45 PM

if all you know about this guy is that he is loose aggressive (judging his preflop stats, he def. is lag), its tough to judge which line is best. if he loose enough that he calls down with any pair than you want to bet obviously. if he is aggressive enough that he will bet any pair or non pair if you check to him, betting is nice. i bet he is both of these to some extent. without any addtional information however, i agree that betting 8 and folding to a raise is a nice line.

SeattleJake

03-03-2005, 08:09 PM

Not the villain, and if this _is_ the table I was at then this must have happened shortly after/before I got there. The stack sizes really sound right though.

Don't have PT running, but Here's a hand that seems indicative of his turn/river play.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB :#A500AF(Villain)/ (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO ($56.99)
Button ($17.9)
SB ($13.95)
BB :#A500AF(Villain)/ ($66)
UTG ($9)
MP ($18.23)

Preflop: UTG is UTG with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, SB (poster) completes, BB :#A500AF(Villain)/ checks.

Flop: ($1.25) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Villain checks, UTG checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($1.25) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Villain checks, UTG bets $1, CO folds, Button calls $1, SB calls $1, Villain calls $1.

River: ($5.25) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Villain checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: $5.25

SB shows [ 3s, Ks ] a pair of threes.
Villain shows [ 4h, Ac ] a pair of aces.
UTG doesn't show [ 4c, 6c ] a pair of sixes.
Button doesn't show [ Th, Qc ] a pair of queens.
Villain wins $5 from the main pot with a pair of aces.

jonnyUCB

03-03-2005, 08:15 PM

are you from california? If not, its probably not worth paying private school prices for public school education. Its a nice college-feeling school though, very poker friendly as well.

SeattleJake

03-03-2005, 08:40 PM

Sorry, it seems like I'm continually trying to hi-jack this thread, but I'm really just curious about this session in particular, so tons of interest. On topic:

I'm sure your stats on him are much more accurate than my read, but I pegged him as loose-moderate. He hovered around 70 the entire time I was there, went all-in twice against comparatively small pots, but most often betting the flop when it was checked around to him, then just check/calling the turn and river, and showing down weak winning hands.

So, in my inexperienced opinion, I would have bet the turn, but the check-call on the river was right on. Making it 8 on the turn would be great, but I would likely have bet 5, since that K would have wimped me out.

BobboFitos

03-03-2005, 08:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
are you from california? If not, its probably not worth paying private school prices for public school education. Its a nice college-feeling school though, very poker friendly as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

My dad lives in CA, so I thought I was "in."
I was not, however.

good stuff.