Folding overpairs?

[Kronon]

This is a hand that happens to us all from time to time. I am delt QQ in late position. UTG+3 opens with 5BB, UTG+5 calls and I thought about putting all-in here but called instead (I am lowstacked and up against big stacks, so I doubt I could scare them away).

The flop is nine high, no pair, no flushdraws, no obvious straight draw. UTG+3 bets 5BB, UTG+5 calls and I call.

Turn is another blank rag. UTG+3 bets 10BB, UTG+5 calls.

What do I do here? What cards do you think UTG+3 and UTG+5 have?

[Mammux]

Hard to say without stack sizes, but I would probably go all-in or at least make a substantial raise preflop. UTG+5 could easily have a medium pair that he will lay down to your reraise. QQ is a great hand heads-up.

With your call, I would reraise the flop. Why are you calling? Looking for another Q? If you go all-in, UTG+3 will need a very strong hand to call, because of the sandwich effect. Even if he does not fear your hand, he will have to respect UTG+5, who could reraise him with a set (which seems consistent with his play).

-Magnus

[Kronon]

The reason to call before the flop is because I dont want to risk all my chips, and since I dont think I can get rid of the others (they have much bigger stacks than me) calling seemed like the best to do. With a safe flop, I thought I could bet confidently, and if an A and/or K fell, I would be able to get away from the pot.

Besides, with QQ, I dont want to scare away cards like 77 or AJ. I dont mind to see a flop and use position to determine the play.

After the flop, when UTG+3 bet out, I thought there was a chanse he had AK, A9, K9, etc, and when UTG+5 called he could also have similar cards. So a call here seemed in order. If another 9 fell, or an ace, I might get away with some chips left. So an all-in just seemed to lose more money if I am beat, without winning anything more if I am ahead.

The above play might not be the best, but lets leave that for now. What to do after turn, when UTG+3 bets and UTG+5 calls? Can I win here?

[JaBlue]

You have to raise this preflop. If you have to, go all in. Just because it won't get them to fold doesn't mean that it's bad. It's very clear that you have to raise preflop in this spot and it's not even close.

Given that you didn't, push on the flop.

Now push on the turn.

Generally in online tournaments you won't have a stack deep enough to get away from an overpair, so don't sweat it if you push it in and they happen to have aces.

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
Generally in online tournaments you won't have a stack deep enough to get away from an overpair, so don't sweat it if you push it in and they happen to have aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm thinking as well. You say you're the short-stack? Shortstacks don't call 5BB's and re-evaluate what to do on the turn. This is strictly a push/fold flop decision (and you couldn't have asked for a better flop).

Don't make this more complicated than it has to be.

Pep.

[Kronon]

I dont like to go all-in with TT-QQ. I prefer to see the flop and then determine how to play. Especially if I have position. If this is correct or not is another matter. I see it more as a personal playing style. Generally speaking, I dont go all-in very often (I try to do it as little as possible in fact).

Going all-in after the flop is probably good. But when UTG+3 came out betting, I got the feeling I was beat. Looking back, I should either have folded or moved all-in after flop. Calling after flop was a weak move.

Anyway, considering how this pot played out, feel free to guess what cards UTG+3 and UTG+5 had!

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
But when UTG+3 came out betting, I got the feeling I was beat. Looking back, I should either have folded or moved all-in after flop. Calling after flop was a weak move.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. UTG+5 probably flopped a set?

[ansky451]

I think this hand would be easier to analyze if you gave more information. Post it like a normal history-- stack sizes, blinds, payout structure, reads on the players.

[Kronon]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this hand would be easier to analyze if you gave more information. Post it like a normal history-- stack sizes, blinds, payout structure, reads on the players.

[/ QUOTE ]I dont have that info right now, but posted from memory (some of it is probably a bit inaccurate).

If you want to see what they had, highlight the text below:
<font color="white">UTG+3 had AA, UTG+5 had K9</font>

[Mammux]

If this LAGgy play is typical for UTG+3, the preflop push is even clearer. UTG+5 is on a wider range of hands when the raiser is loose, and you want to go heads-up with UTG+3.

Actually, if stacks are deep, a preflop reraise is probably better (than a push). Add another 10xbb and lay it down if UTG+5 reraises you. If UTG+3 folds and UTG+5 calls, play the flop with extreme caution.

To echo another poster, your original post misses some very important information. That makes it hard to give advice, but it is also a sign that you need to pay more attention to reads and stack positions. In situations like these, they are at least as important as your cards. Against certain opponents, you could make that preflop reraise with almost any two.

-Magnus

[JonLines]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont go all-in very often (I try to do it as little as possible in fact).

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a query, have you ever won a MTT? As Doyle Brunson says 'The key to no-limit hold'em is to put a man to a decision for all his chips' (At least I think it was Doyle). All-in is your most powerful weapon!! Don't be afraid to use it. I am not inferring that it was the right thing to do in this situation (as you haven't provided enough information), but you can't just sit around waiting for the nuts and ever expect to be a great tourney player.

In regards to your situation, if you really believed someone had an overpair why are you calling pre-flop? Hoping for a Q? If someone does have AA or KK you are screwed regardless of whether you go all-in pre-flop, or if you go all-in with a dead flop/turn/river. Thus the only real hand you are scared of is AK, if your stack allows you just to call pre-flop, then this may be a sensible decision (though you may be giving someone with a small pair a chance to hit a set), but when the flop is then safe, you have to protect your hand with an all-in, if someone chooses to gamble with an inferior hand, that is their choice. But you cant just sit their and give them a cheap turn, if they want to gamble they have to pay for their gamble.

[Kronon]

[ QUOTE ]
-Magnus

[/ QUOTE ]We have the same name /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

About the QQ: if I have a big stack, I would also consider a big raise preflop and a fold if reraised. But in this case, I have a pretty low stack and any raise would basically mean all-in preflop.

Maybe its just me, but I hate to go all-in with QQ preflop. Seems whenever you are called, you are either a conflip against AK, or far behind vs KK or AA.

I should have gone all-in after flop though. If I play this hand, and get a ragged flop below Q, I can't really ask for a better flop.

The second choise would be to fold, the third and worst is calling (which I did). Funny how much easier it is to understand these issues after the pot, compared to when you are in the middle of it.

[Kronon]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a query, have you ever won a MTT? As Doyle Brunson says 'The key to no-limit hold'em is to put a man to a decision for all his chips' (At least I think it was Doyle). All-in is your most powerful weapon!! Don't be afraid to use it.

In regards to your situation, if you really believed someone had an overpair why are you calling pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]I have won several big tourneys on PP actually. Finished 7:th in a 109 yesterday, 3:rd earlier this week. Won one last week.

The reason to call QQ preflop with position is to reevaluate the hand after the flop. And if the flop had contained a J, I would definitely go all-in, since UTG+3 could have AJ. But with this flop, I got suspiscious about his hand. What can he have when he bets strong in first position against 2 preflop callers? Would he really bet AK like that?

Still, calling after flop is wrong. Folding or all-in here are the only options. I realize this now (but I didnt when I played the pot).

There are several ways to play NL holdem. I play pretty agressively most of the time, but I try to slow down when I get this 'bad' feeling that I am beat, or up against a slowplayer. Sometimes that makes me win less money (or even lose pots I would have won), and sometimes it makes me stay in the tournament when an all-in would have kicked me out.

Remember that online poker lacks tells (more or less), so its much harder to spot weakness. And its when you spot weakness that all-in is the best weapon. In my opinion, going all-in to often is a sure way to never go far in the tournaments, unless you get very lucky.

Finally, going all-in or putting someone to the test for all his chips are two completely different things. I do one quite often, the other not so often.

[JonLines]

As I say, I wasn't inferring it is the best thing to do in that situation, I was merely commenting on your quote that 'I don't go all-in very often (I try to do it as little as possible in fact)'. This is a typical standpoint of a 'tight weak' player, but as your explanation shows, you have a far deeper understanding of the game than you originally let on.

Seeing as you do have a deeper understanding and from your recent tournament successes are obviously a competent player, I have to agree with the others and say the only way your going to get useful advice is to have more details in regards to chip stacks/blind levels/players left.

[GtrHtr]

Depends on stack sizes for sure but I would say that you are probably already 3d best in this hand or if you are the best hand pre-flop then you will likely lose on the board. Take the signal and back out now.

[hurlyburly]

After the turn you look to be getting 5-1. How deep are you that you can call 20BB and still be getting away with chips? You should be pushing easily on the turn, there are just too many hands that you are ahead of here.

I don't blame you for calling the PF, but you have a dream flop and a hand that is vulnerable if AK decides to stick around (or worse yet, command the betting). If either of your opponents is sitting on KK-AA here, they'd be putting more in the middle.