A hand versus Sthief09 (put us on hands)

[Joe Tall]

I was up late working on hand history reports and suddenly this little $hit jumps in my juicy shorthanded game. This may have been the 2nd hand he played.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Joe Tall is UTG with XX.
<font color="#CC3333">Joe Tall raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Stheif09 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Joe Tall calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Stheif09 bets</font>, Joe Tall calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Stheif09 bets</font>, Joe Tall calls.

River: (6.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Stheif09 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Joe Tall raises</font>

What do we have?

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Jeff W]

I think that you have a strong hand that doesn't cap pre flop: AJ, 99 or 77. I think 99 and 77 are more likely than AJ. I don't think you have a flush, because I would expect a raise on an early street from KQd, KTd, QTd.

Sthief can play a variety of hands this way:
He could have 99-AA, AJ, KQd. I don't think he's getting out of line on this board w/ a weak hand. His river action will further narrow his hand range.

[Joe Tall]

think 99 and 77 are more likely

For the record, heads up, shorthanded, I cap w/these versus aggressive players and surely against stage 3 types like Josh.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Jeff W]

I'll have to think more about this tomorrow. The Ad on the river eliminates many possible hands for both players.

I'm interested to see the result.

[SomethingClever]

Well, if you weren't Joe Tall and sthief, and you didn't know each other, I would say sthief has JJ and you have KQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

However, given meta game considerations, I will put sthief on 52 /images/graemlins/club.gif and you on 33.

[Sporky]

Joe Tall - KQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
stheif09 - JJ-KK, 77, AJ

[Trix]

At first I wanted to put you on a diamond draw as I dont think you would raise the flop with it on this board, but KQs you probably cap, QTs has a gut and turns an openended, K9s turns a pair, KTs turns a double gutter, so I think that you may have raised them on the turn.

So now I think you hit two pair on the river, probably didn´t raise the flop or turn as sthief is cabable to come over the top withot beeing ahead of you I think, but also very often will when ahead.

Not sure if you raise A4s first in 5-handed, but A7s you do for sure, so I´m guessing A7 spades or hearts.

Josh has a big Ace, AA, JJ, 99, 77, maybe even 44, maybe KQ and probably some more too..

He will bet, bet, bet most of his hands, so its hard to make his range very slim.

[sthief09]

I have a problem playing too fast when I'm playing SH. I'm too impulsive. I don't even think. that 62 hand is an example. after you chceck raised the flop my plan was to call one bet on the turn and fold the river. lots of the time people will check raise, then bet teh turn and give up on the river. I had some outs too. the A putting a 3-flush ruined everything but I didn't adjust.

anyway, looking at that board, I'm regretting folding. I think there's a damn good chance you didn't have anything, and my hand had showdown value.

the only hands I can put you on where I think you actually had something are A4 or maybe A7, and possibly AK or AQ planning on calling me down. you don't have a diamond draw or a monster. you know I'll give you action on the flop pretty much regardless, so you know there's no point in slowplaying. I saw the 3 flush and A and thought "worst card" so I folded. but you didn't have a flush draw. there really aren't a lot of holes on that board though, and you probably raised with something connected if you didn't have an A.

I think you'd have raised the turn with a pair + gut shot and there aren't really any 2 card gut shots with 1 over. KT is open ended on the turn, and you wouldn't raise the river with the nut no pair. I'm having trouble putting you on a hand I beat actually. I think it was a good fold now that I think of it. I can't think of any cards that you got to the river with that you didn't pair up

I'm not sure how you play really, but I'd think you'd like to protect your 4 on a 9 high board. you might not though if you put me on a naked A. so I'm going to give you A4

what do you think I folded?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

He will bet, bet, bet most of his hands, so its hard to make his range very slim.

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah, exactly. he should've shown that I folded. that narrows my range a lot

[sublime]

I have a problem playing too fast when I'm playing SH. I'm too impulsive

ditto. except i play like that full ring also /images/graemlins/smile.gif

especially live

[sthief09]

there was some guy Subl1me9 on Party yesterday from Mass. I figured it was you. he said ti wasn't. oops

[rory]

Joe Tall has A7s and sthief09 has AQc or AKc.

Edit: Oh if sthief09 folds the river, I put him on a big or mid pocket pair. Some pocket pair.

[Joe Tall]

I don't even think. that 62 hand is an example. after you chceck raised the flop my plan was to call one bet on the turn and fold the river. lots of the time people will check raise, then bet teh turn and give up on the river.

When did I become lots of people?

I had some outs too. the A putting a 3-flush ruined everything but I didn't adjust

Um, how many could you have w/o a club?

I'm regretting folding. I think there's a damn good chance you didn't have anything, and my hand had showdown value.

You made the correct fold.

Fun playing with you (if that's what you call playing. /images/graemlins/blush.gif/images/graemlins/grin.gif),
Joe Tall

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't even think. that 62 hand is an example. after you chceck raised the flop my plan was to call one bet on the turn and fold the river. lots of the time people will check raise, then bet teh turn and give up on the river.

When did I become lots of people?

[/ QUOTE ]

since you became a typical party fish


[ QUOTE ]

I had some outs too. the A putting a 3-flush ruined everything but I didn't adjust

Um, how many could you have w/o a club?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was talking about the flop. my turn call was bad. I was intent on calling the turn and folding the river, but the Ac should've changed my plan. that's why I said I'm too impulsive

[sublime]

well if he played well, than that would be a good indicator that it wasnt me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sthief09]

nah he sucked actually. I'm an idiot and didn't bother to look at his stats

[Joe Tall]

I rasied the river and Sthief layed down. I had A /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and props to Trix and Sthief on an excellent hand read.

Sthief layed down TT or 88, I'd say.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Schneids]

I put Sthief on KcQc and putting on a show making you think you rivered him or something or that he made some wowing muck. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I put Sthief on KcQc and putting on a show making you think you rivered him or something or that he made some wowing muck. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice hand read, Schneids but you are giving the little-lag a hair too much credit. He had KQo, I hear. I wonder if he'll drop some thoughts now that we know his hand.

I do consider him my little brother of the SS-forum. I have learned much from him as I hope he has learned from me. Funny how this is the first hand we played against each other.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[MAxx]

S told me he was just river value betting you with the nut-no-pair.

when a loose passive fishy like you raises the river, he knows he is no good. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
you don't have a diamond draw or a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dig the reasoning about no monster, but are you saying Joe also raises the flop with diamonds + overs? I think that's what I'm hearing, and it makes sense, but I just want to make sure.

[daryn]

without reading posts (i hope results haven't been posted):

i strongly suspect joe tall holds K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

sthief has something like TT or maybe 88 ... maybe AJ


edit: just read some posts and saw that sthief folded the river.. so long AJ.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Funny how this is the first hand we played against each other.

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah I was about to go to bed and I saw you at one of my data mining tables. I had to sit

[sthief09]

I just PM'ed you my reasoning, but since you hated 3/4 streets and disliked the other, I'm going to post it.

Preflop- 5-handed, I thought this was a standard 3-bet. I know my range from your position includes some pretty weak hands like JTs, 55, or QJo, so I assumed yours were around the same

Flop- once I 3-bet preflop, I'm pretty much obligated to bet.

Turn- I figured you'd peel with a naked A on the flop or raise with most pairs. that left a small pair or an A. since I was pretty confident you'd peel with A-high I figured it was worth a bet to fold. the pot's laying me 3.33-1 on a bet and I thought you'd fold a better hand (an A) often enough to justify that

River- once you call the turn, I figure you for a small pair. the A is the worst card in the deck for you. the 3-flush makes it even scarier. I figured there were enough hands you'd fold to justify it.

so it wasn't completely mindless betting, just mostly. the turn bet is pretty bad though.

[Joe Tall]

I thought this was a standard 3-bet. I know my range from your position includes some pretty weak hands like JTs, 55, or QJo, so I assumed yours were around the same

Nope and not surprised, but nope.

once I 3-bet preflop, I'm pretty much obligated to bet

Never think you are 'obligated' to bet.

it wasn't completely mindless betting, just mostly.

We never 'mindlessly' bet. We may not be in our right minds but not mindless.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[sthief09]

here's another one. with the big SB and small rake, can I smooth call there? I wouldn't mind playing it 3-handed.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
here's another one. with the big SB and small rake, can I smooth call there? I wouldn't mind playing it 3-handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo! Versus an unknown or a typical HUSH-Lag like bunky, yes 3-bet. But versus and tight-wad like me, smooth call. You'll get a $hit-load out of a player like me when you make a hand I can't put you one by smooth calling if I have a smaller piece.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
Bingo! Versus an unknown or a typical HUSH-Lag like bunky, yes 3-bet

[/ QUOTE ]


Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I do agree that raising KQs in the SB against my opening standards is WAY +EV. You're still out of position against me postflop.

And, FWIW, I'm not the one who went nuts with 56o HU OOP against a TAG with 6 high. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

My honest opinion, all due respect to the posters as I like them both, (well, Joe Tall a little more cause Josh always ducks me)

JT, your line was fine. All the way through. You have more of the Tommy style and it works for you. Theres really nowhere you can raise before the river. No where you can fold against Josh.

Josh OTOH, Probably should have called PF against someone of the not so Laggy variety and keep the pot smaller.

Seemed more like a desperation series of events trying to get you to fold when its obvious that once you call the turn, you are committed to showdown. Especially since you are in position, you think he is reverse dominated if the Ace hits, and you close the action and have complete control of the pot.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]


Seemed more like a desperation series of events trying to get you to fold when its obvious that once you call the turn, you are committed to showdown. Especially since you are in position, you think he is reverse dominated if the Ace hits, and you close the action and have complete control of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bunk,

You rule. This is exactly what I told Josh in a PM.

Peace bro,
JT

[sthief09]

couple of things:
1. even after reading all his posts in the past, I didn't know his style. this was the 2nd hand, so I just assumed he was laggro like me

2. is it really hopeless on the river? you don't think he can ever have a better hand that'll fold to the river A?

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
2. is it really hopeless on the river? you don't think he can ever have a better hand that'll fold to the river A?

[/ QUOTE ]

When Joe check calls the flop, AND check calls the turn, it screams I'm going to showdown , and I wanna get there cheap. When he starts checkraising and trying some monkey business you can MAYBE put him to a fold (he will raise and fold to a three bet on occasion) but the way Joe played this hand this hand tells me hes showing it down, you bet on the river is at the very least going to get called, or (as you see) checkraised.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2. is it really hopeless on the river? you don't think he can ever have a better hand that'll fold to the river A?

[/ QUOTE ]

When Joe check calls the flop, AND check calls the turn, it screams I'm going to showdown , and I wanna get there cheap. When he starts checkraising and trying some monkey business you can MAYBE put him to a fold (he will raise and fold to a three bet on occasion) but the way Joe played this hand this hand tells me hes showing it down, you bet on the river is at the very least going to get called, or (as you see) checkraised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have positon, Bunk but your thought are right on.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I have positon, Bunk but your thought are right on.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I dunno why I stuck the check part in there, but yeah, if you're giving up on this hand its on the flop. You're not calling the flop and turn to fold to some desperation river bet, even if the ace didnt come.

Ive actually been slowing down in some circumstances and its been working out okay. Win rate has climbed.