A common situation with an easy answer

[adanthar]

Level 1 or 2 of a tournament. You assume most people in this tournament are bad until they prove otherwise, and the last hand was no exception; some guy's 2 pair/set/TPTK got cracked by another guy's rivered two pair/backdoor flush/gutshot. The first guy called the obvious river all in and was left with...let's call it 125 chips.

On the next hand, he is now UTG with those 125 and pushes all in. You are in the BB with ATs and your original 1K; it's folded to you. Call or fold?

If fold, what do you call with? If call, what do you fold with?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Level 1 or 2 of a tournament. You assume most people in this tournament are bad until they prove otherwise, and the last hand was no exception; some guy's 2 pair/set/TPTK got cracked by another guy's rivered two pair/backdoor flush/gutshot. The first guy called the obvious river all in and was left with...let's call it 125 chips.

On the next hand, he is now UTG with those 125 and pushes all in. You are in the BB with ATs and your original 1K; it's folded to you. Call or fold?

If fold, what do you call with? If call, what do you fold with?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume this is a STT.....what buyin and what site?

Yugoslav

[adanthar]

I don't think the buyin matters that much but let's say Party anywhere below the 200's.

[dfscott]

Ok, hanging it out there is the only way to learn, so... I'll answer this without analysis and on gut instinct alone: I would fold here. Since this is early, there's effectively nothing in the pot other than his bet, so I'm basically betting 125 to win 250 (1:1). In a sense, this is similar to a modified blind steal, where I risk X to win .75X (or .33X if I raised 3*BB).

Hmmm... now I think I might've talked myself into this, since we're getting better than blind steal odds. You can offset that to some degree by the fact that you're expecting your opponent to have at least something since he was willing to push (maybe -- this guy is nuts). You have a good hot and cold hand and you're guaranteed to see the river for 12% of your stack. And you can increase your stack by the same amount. Now I'm thinking this is a call (my final answer).

How'd I do?

Edited to clarify that my answer is "call."

[wiggs73]

I'll take a stab at it.

I muck. I'd call w/ TT or better and AK.

[The Yugoslavian]

My answer will be easy I suppose but most likely wrong as I've not given enough thought to what to call small desperate stacks with in the early going.

I'd say 88+ and A9+ -- what's that, about 10% of hands?

I think you're up against topish 30%-35% of hands here btw.

Yugoslav
(who thinks folding is fine too...but he always thinks that)

[johnnybeef]

since we are assuming that all players are bad, im assuming that this monkey has just given up. i dont know the range of what i call with, but i do know that a suited AT fits in there.

[MagnoliasFM]

[ QUOTE ]
since we are assuming that all players are bad, im assuming that this monkey has just given up. i dont know the range of what i call with, but i do know that a suited AT fits in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[curtains]

I call

[kdotsky]

I'll take a stab, but the 'easy answer' part scares me...

I don't think I like calling 10% of my stack away in a situation like this. The extra 125 doesn't help that much, and I'd much rather save those chips to do some limping and try to hit big against the poor players. The problem is, I think it's obvious we're giving up some +chip EV here, as AT probably beats his range of hands. I think I still prefer to save all my chips for the bubble or for doubling up in a soft SNG like this.

[The Yugoslavian]

The 'easy' part is supposed to be scary. But also possibly quite informative.

What I don't get is that everyone is only answering 1/3 of his post.

Yugoslav
(who isn't singling Mr. Koolaid/Heineken man out, /images/graemlins/wink.gif...just happens to be the last post in the thread atm)

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
What I don't get is that everyone is only answering 1/3 of his post.


[/ QUOTE ]

errr...1/2 of his question

[curtains]

If I have a few questions, Id rather have one answer than none.

[Pepsquad]

I call with A8+, any two face cards and any PP.

ATs will work just fine.

[lorinda]

If fold, what do you call with? If call, what do you fold with?

I think it matters if I have 1000 chips or 800. Sorry to be pedantic.

Personally I call with ATs in a shot, but then, like some others, the 'easy answer' part scares me.

With 800 chips I call with any ace, KQ KJ KT K9s QJ, any pair.

with 1000 chips I may play loose /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Lori

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
since we are assuming that all players are bad, im assuming that this monkey has just given up. i dont know the range of what i call with, but i do know that a suited AT fits in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. That's it, and it's REALLY REALLY easy to make the call and get a 60/40 or better for 10% of your stack here (hint: you are making a just about equally profitable move when you raise AK PF knowing it will get two callers.)

I mostly posted this hand because it's an exercise in basic hand reading. Roughly 9 times out of 10 the post bad beat all in is a monkey play (the tenth, it's me and I have aces, but you don't need to worry about me in a 20+2.)

As to the second part of the question, I'd say Lorinda's right although I probably fold 33-22 and A2-A3o (maybe.). With fewer chips, you do play slightly tighter - up to a point. When you have 400-500 or fewer left this is a very good time to rebuild a bit of your stack.

Followup that I haven't really thought through yet but is probably close to the original: given Lorinda's calling range on the BB, how do you modify it if you're on the button and reraising to isolate, instead? Assume it's level 2 so the blinds make it slightly more attractive to do this.

[kdotsky]

Woops, I guess I've been playing way too many flat payout 2-table step tournies.

[PoBoy321]

I think that there are a few more factors here to take into account, namely, how many players are left? This makes a difference because if there are still the full 10 left, I might fold because with the blinds still low (remember that in level 1, 150 chips is still 10X BB) I don't see the need to try to knock players out with marginal hands. If there are 8 or fewer players left (which I've seen happen by level 2 in many Party STTs), I would be more inclined to call since a)the stacks of your opponents are getting bigger and b) getting one closer to the money becomes more attractive.

EDIT: To answer your two questions directly, assuming the full ten, I would call 99+ and AQ or AK, but maybe I'm too tight. If there are fewer players left, any PP, A8+.

[eastbay]

Like the others, I'm pretty curious to hear why this is easy, too.

As for the 1st question, I'm mostly trying to figure out how it matters much either way.

eastbay

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Like the others, I'm pretty curious to hear why this is easy, too.

As for the 1st question, I'm mostly trying to figure out how it matters much either way.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

he told us that this was a hand reading problem, which in and of itself is not easy at all...go figure.

[Hillbilly Cat]

I see no problem per-se with calling (although I'm hardly qualified to know) but I think this is much more a psychology question as someone else mentioned.

He probably is just punting his luck.

However, this early on in a tourny, with such a small amount to win, I'd be thinking 'why bother, let someone else deal with it later'.

He's already pretty stuck, he plays pretty badly so why give him any kind of opportunity to feel better by outdrawing me.. and lets face it if he does that will *definately* cheer him up.. after all, I guess we're all assuming he's pushing out of desparation. If so then what is his ideal result? If he loses he gets to say 'hey ho, I was stuck anyway' and if he wins he gets to say 'yeah, lady luck, I'm back in it again' and who know, he might tighten up a bit then.

Shut the door on him I think.

As he's about to be the BB and the SB straight after, that leaves him 2 more difficult situations in which he's quite likely to push again with anything modest. I may have a better hand by then, so may someone else and if there's a few callers perhaps they can sort him out more effectively. I'd also rather be the SB or on the button to make the move, simply because if he doesn't have anything, I can sweep up the blinds anyway if he doesn't push.

Isn't it also true that, heads up like this, its pretty hard to have a big overlay assuming that the hand then goes free to the river? Are you that much of a favourite against KJo, or 33s or Ax etc... all hands he may well have.

I'd forgoe the opportunity for the sake of getting a better situation. When he's the SB, and lets assume everyone folds to me on the button, I think thats a much better time to call if i think he will push. After, particularly if the BB calls also, giving me higher implied odds etc....

Of course I'd like that AT again /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Scuba Chuck]

I am going to take a stab at this without reading any of the responses. It would seem logical that it's EZ to take a gamble for 1/10th of your stack with a Top 10 hand. ATs ranks as #13 out of 169 hand combinations. So, ATs seems like a very EZ choice for me.

As to what are my minimum calling standards. Well, let's leave this a little mathematical. I'd feel comfortable with Top 15%, as our villain appears to be "giving up." That is 66+, A9o+, A7s (I'd actually probably call lower here, so Axs), & KT+,

How'd I do?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What I don't get is that everyone is only answering 1/3 of his post.


[/ QUOTE ]

errr...1/2 of his question

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, ummm....my hand slipped from the 2 to the 3....that's the ticket.

Nice catch! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Yugoslav

[yecul]

I'll assume it's what I play -- Party $10. I'll also assume I have 800 chips and blinds are 15/30.

I would call as he's probably pushing with any ace, any picture, or maybe a KQ type of hand. I figure I'm 50/50 or 60/40 against his holding.

What would I call with? A strong enough ace - A8/9+. Two pictures. PP.

Edit --

Actually, I was in a situation like this just yesterday. I had JJ early on and raised it up from the BB hoping to take the money in the pot (blinds + 1 caller). He stuck around and caught with his junky hand leaving me with a shortish stack. Very next hand I get KK with a caller or three and push (250-400 chips, let's say) hoping to get a call thinking I'm just tilting. Didn't work, but sometimes you can use this to your advantage. Most people think someone who just got bad beat for most of their chips will just push with any two.

[Skip Brutale]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, hanging it out there is the only way to learn, so... I'll answer this without analysis and on gut instinct alone: I would fold here. Since this is early, there's effectively nothing in the pot other than his bet, so I'm basically betting 125 to win 250 (1:1). In a sense, this is similar to a modified blind steal, where I risk X to win .75X (or .33X if I raised 3*BB).



[/ QUOTE ]

You don't factor in the chips you are calling off towards the pot odds you are getting (rolf lol laughing at you!).