"Official" Live at the Bike Thread (3/2 show)

[Kevmath]

Here's the thread for Wednesday's show, which Rick said in an earlier post would be 20/40 limit holdem. Should be interesting, but anything would be better than last Wednesday's show, which was a real snoozefest. Combine that with tonight the premier of the 3rd season of WPT and it seems like a great evening to watch poker.

Kevin...

[Russ McGinley]

Anybody of note playing tonight?

[Kevmath]

I guess we'll find out when it pops up. The usual announcers on Wednesdays are Denny and Shirley. Bart's mentioned many times he usually plays 20/40 so maybe he'll turn up in the game.

Kevin...

[Kaz The Original]

The real question is, anyone of note POSTING tonight : )

[Russ McGinley]

Lets see who can get a mention without blatantly trying for it or begging Denny to make one.

[Kaz The Original]

lol! What do you think we're gonna be called today? Two by Two or Two On Two : )

[AceOfDiamonds]

[ QUOTE ]
lol! What do you think we're gonna be called today? Two by Two or Two On Two : )

[/ QUOTE ]

Two Squared? Two Ex Two? Twenty Two? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Kaz The Original]

Sounds like bart and shirley announcing to me.

[PuckNPoker]

I dont have sound right now, that is a 4/8 game right?

[Russ McGinley]

Bart says Denny is off doing tourney directing. Dunno if Bart will bother mentioning us but we'll see.

[TimTimSalabim]

I'm getting sound but no picture.

Edit: I'm getting both now. I hit Stop and then Play to restart it, I don't know if that's what did it.

[Kaz The Original]

8/16, two dollar chips.

I like how a gutshot has already taken down a big hand.

[Kevmath]

Post deleted by Kevmath

[Kaz The Original]

It's 8/16.

[TimTimSalabim]

Yeah, mine is really choppy now, both sound and video cutting in and out. Has this gotten too popular? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Russ McGinley]

Mine is working fine.

[Kaz The Original]

Seat 5 is a pro! 54o and 107o... what a chotch.

[Russ McGinley]

LOL

Seat 6 catches his 6-outer and checks behind seat 5? Weak.

[CripAces]

What is the woman's name? Does anyone know what she looks like? Is it wrong to watch such a low limit table? What a far cry from the 400-800.

[Kaz The Original]

I LOVE the chick whining about her ace's... what a chotch.

[PuckNPoker]

Seat 1 is piiiissseedd lol, AA cracked by T8s on the river. S7 flopped a double gutter iirc.

[Russ McGinley]

She went off for about 5 seconds. Did you notice her fling her cards at him? Awesome.

"Yep, yep! Thank you!" Haha that guy is funny.

[AceOfDiamonds]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the woman's name? Does anyone know what she looks like? Is it wrong to watch such a low limit table? What a far cry from the 400-800.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's two women... one in seat 1, one in seat 2. Shirley was pleased to see two women at the table.

[Russ McGinley]

More whining from seat 1 as she misses with AQ. Hopefully she stays in the game for awhile as bidness could pick up.

[CripAces]

No I meant the announcer

[TimTimSalabim]

The lower the limits, the more the players whine and complain. That's a poker law /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

[AceOfDiamonds]

[ QUOTE ]
No I meant the announcer

[/ QUOTE ]

Shirley Rosario, the Poker Babe.

[Kaz The Original]

Seat 1's on Tilt... Ace's up goes down... she's gonna start playing some crap. A9 UTG you get what you deserve.

[Russ McGinley]

She is strug-a-ling. I'm begging for her to get pocket aces cracked by some garbage hand a la Chad Brown.

[Kaz The Original]

The girl is talking about doing exactly what seat 8 did... and then is surprised when he does it.

[Corey]

TWO OUTER!

[Kaz The Original]

Who folded KJo preflop? Seat 1?

[Russ McGinley]

They didn't show or say.

[Corey]

Two words, Bart: Pot Equity. He's not from the Ed Miller school of small stakes hold 'em.

This discussing about not rasing AKs out of the BB with 4-5 limpers.

[Kaz The Original]

Talking about not raising AK, or JJ out of the big blind. His comment about re-raising may be valid although shadowboxing like that is over-rated, but come on now... raise for value you chotch.

[Kaz The Original]

Somebody get that man pokerstove.

[Corey]

Bart: I Wouldn't raise aces out of the Big Blind

Ed Miller: This is how I made a killing at small stakes games.

Edit: Bart is officially a fish

[poker327]

And I thought I played limit holdem tightly...

[3rdEye]

[ QUOTE ]
She is strug-a-ling. I'm begging for her to get pocket aces cracked by some garbage hand a la Chad Brown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice to see someone else watches PTI.

[TStoneMBD]

i was looking forward to watching this tonight as i was going to be home, but i checked it out as soon as it started and the players were so terrible thats its not worth my time. what a crap this production is. they really have to go back to the high stake games. :[

[Kaz The Original]

STOP HITTING GUTSHOTS

[3rdEye]

Do people really play this badly at this level? I never thought SSHE could be applicable at a 20/40 table.

[Corey]

This game has just turned into Party .5/1.

6-way action with A6s the best hand with 47s winning a pot with runner-runner trips.

[Russ McGinley]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She is strug-a-ling. I'm begging for her to get pocket aces cracked by some garbage hand a la Chad Brown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice to see someone else watches PTI.

[/ QUOTE ]

That happened over a year ago and its still funny. I'm laughing right now just thinking about it.

[Kaz The Original]

It's tough to continue on that board, but you've got a gutshot as well as the fact that your hand is good a fair % of the time... what do you guys think?

[poker327]

Supposedly they play like this at the Borgata 20/40, contrary to Bart's opinion about AC.

[Corey]

With the 4-straight board/3-flush board, the pot must be pretty big to continue with QQ and a gutshot. Being able to see the hole cards showed it was a bad laydown, but depending on the raiser, I think it's an easy laydown.

[Russ McGinley]

Seat 5 has a VP$IP of about 98. Also from a distance he looks like Eddie from Tilt.

[Kaz The Original]

Priceless! Now seat 6 has similiar numbers but a bit more repressed anger causing him to bring in Q9suited for a raise.

[TheShootah]

These people are nuts. This is the first time I am watching a game this high in limits and these people scare. I kinda wanna sit down.....

[Corey]

Seat 5 is the definition of a low-limit fish. Estinated long-run stats:

95% VPIP, .25 agression factor at best, went to SD 75%, won at SD 33%
However, he feels better about himself because he can't be bluffed out.

[Kaz The Original]

Check it out in a simulatory. Barring freak circumstances where all your aces are used up and 67s has no duplicated cards, Ace's are always a huge favourite over all other cards multi way. They are not only the best heads up hand, they are the best MULTIWAY hand.

Yes, you lose more often multiway, but you also win more when you win. Curb your weak tight play my friend!

[Corey]

Bart, meet Mr. Expected Value.
Expected Value, meet Bart.

I'd raise aces from the Big Blind, with 9 limpers.

[Russ McGinley]

Adding seat 5 to your buddy list = +EV.

He calls a raise with 66 and calls down on a board of K-J-J-9-5. Those goofy sunglasses must be blocking his brain from making smart decisions.

[Kaz The Original]

I'd raise, if they joined tables, and I had 19 limpers.

[3rdEye]

[ QUOTE ]
Bart, meet Mr. Expected Value.
Expected Value, meet Bart.

I'd raise aces from the Big Blind, with 9 limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good god, who wouldn't?

[Kaz The Original]

Props to the value bet mention by Bart, atleast he hasn't totally lost his cajones.

[Kaz The Original]

Runner runner lol. I'm going to LA to play Seat 5 specifically.

[Russ McGinley]

LMAO @ Seat 5

Clearly we all do not really know how to play poker. Calling a raise w/ A5s, calling the flop of T-T-6 w/ one of your suit = +EV.

[Corey]

Seat 5 is the worst player that Live at the Bike has seen. It's Official.

Without Denny, the 2+2 mentions have gone way down.

[Russ McGinley]

OH SEAT 5 DENIED!

Full house taken down by the straight flush. OOPS. YHING

[3rdEye]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She is strug-a-ling. I'm begging for her to get pocket aces cracked by some garbage hand a la Chad Brown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice to see someone else watches PTI.

[/ QUOTE ]

That happened over a year ago and its still funny. I'm laughing right now just thinking about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, I still laugh my ass off every time I think about it as well.

[Corey]

Stop the presses: Seat 5 folds pre-flop! I guess he didn't get the memo that any two can win.

[Kaz The Original]

WHAT DID THEY GO, LIKE 3 BETS? THESE GUYS ARE LOOSER THAN A 50 INCH PAIR OF JEANS ON AN ANOREXIC, YET THEY GET THE SECOND NUTS VS THE PURE NUTS AND GO 3 BETS? HUH?

I'm missing something...

[TheShootah]

Who is this commentator guy? You raise AA preflop for value wherever you are. This Live at the Bike is nuts!

[Corey]

Bart just considers the meta-game in all of his actions. If I ever sit down with him and he checks in the big blind, I'm gonna shut down.

[Russ McGinley]

Wow, congrats to Kaz! Although they didn't say his name, Shirley read his entire post word for word!

[Kaz The Original]

I loved how she shut him up to finish it off... man that's special. Me and my room mates are laughing our assess off.

[Russ McGinley]

[ QUOTE ]
Stop the presses: Seat 5 folds pre-flop! I guess he didn't get the memo that any two can win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, his VPIP isn't 100, its 98. Twice every 100 hands he takes a breather.

[Kaz The Original]

Seat 6 hasn't won a hand in a while... but he sure has been trying! I thought those deuces would have been good!

[TheShootah]

That is the funniest thing I have seen yet! Has anyone from 2+2 played?

[Russ McGinley]

Not in this game, although if they offered supersonic jet service to The Bike from Florida where I could be there in 30 minutes, I'd be there.

[Corey]

Shirley always complains about the lack of women at the table. She must feel good tonight because seat 2 seems to be head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of poker skill.

[TheShootah]

Hahaha....if I could gain 3 years, pull a bankroll outta thin air, and get outta studying for a Calc III and Chem of Materials Test, I would try to run there!

[Russ McGinley]

And seat 1 is horrendous. At least she doesn't need those two racks anymore! Maybe they were bad luck and forced her to call with 32s and chase backdoor draws.

[BarronVangorToth]

What's hysterical is that they both know how bad these players are, they HINT at how bad they are, but don't want to outright insult their customers, due to the whole "these our customers of our casino and the casino pays for our show" kind of thing.

But they should start shooting on these people. No holds barred. Insult them. All of them.

C'mon, announcers, ONE hand, call the proverbial spade a spade and say each action they do that's suboptimal.

I love a good shoot.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Kaz The Original]

Not to mention she's totally hot... I think I'm in love!

[BarronVangorToth]

Guy: "When were you a cocktail waitress here? Was it before or after I got out of junior high school..."

[Corey]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention she's totally hot... I think I'm in love!

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if she's hot, but she not that bad.

However, in any given poker room I'm sure she's the hottest one playing.

[TheShootah]

I am pretty pumped to see that jackass in seat 6 lose another one.

[Kaz The Original]

I'm gonna teach a course in betting the river.

[Corey]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna teach a course in betting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is my only complaint about seat 2 so far, the four or five pots she won were all checked on the river.

[Russ McGinley]

They are trying very hard not to say "Seat 5 is a total fu<font color="black"></font>cking moron." Just let it fly Bart. We got your back.

[Kaz The Original]

These guys gotta start straddling... seat 5, 6 and 7 (the old wily guy) could have the straddle, restraddle and capped pot precards.

[BarronVangorToth]

Guy: "When I think of 'action' player, I think of a guy making raises and not check-calling his way down to the felt. But, you know, that's me and not some random putz that happened in front of our webcam."

[Corey]

[ QUOTE ]
These guys gotta start straddling... seat 5, 6 and 7 (the old wily guy) could have the straddle, restraddle and capped pot precards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bart: If I were in the small blind with pocket aces and it were capped before it got to me, I would throw my hand away. Everyone would have the odds to draw out on me.

[Kaz The Original]

Bart : I like my aces in unraised pot. It's less likely aces are out there, so it's more likely I hit my set. Therefore, I don't raise!

(all joking aside for a weak tight nit you're a decent guy :P)

[lighterjobs]

how can 20/40 be this bad?

[Kaz The Original]

Seat one sucks out on the turn to hit trips... seat five sucks out on the river to hit his gut shot on the paired board with the flush draw... BEAUTIFUL... BEAUTIFUL

And then the tossing the card on the table was the icing on the cake.

[Russ McGinley]

And now we see a poker player's nightmare: A VPIP 98, AF .2 fish catching miracle suckouts and breaking players.

[Corey]

[ QUOTE ]
how can 20/40 be this bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's 8/16.

[Corey]

[ QUOTE ]
And now we see a poker player's nightmare: A VPIP 95, AF .2 fish catching miracle suckouts and breaking players.

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as he's busting out other tight players at the table and not myself, then I'm all for it.

Again, seat 2 is my favorite live at the bike 8/16 hold 'em game.

[Russ McGinley]

Q3o, naturally he's limping pre-flop, calling the flop with bottom pair and catching two-pair on the turn. Hi-larious.

[lighterjobs]

i just realized it.

[Corey]

I miss Denny.

Two hours in and we get our first directions to the Bike? It's an every 10 minute thing from Denny.

Plus, Denny makes fun of us more.

[lighterjobs]

crazy koreans

[sprint3000us]

Request to commentators Shirley and the guy: Please stop bashing or making silly comments (like 'see this guy on seat 5 is calling with Q5o, 23s, A4o,...).

STOP scaring the fishes who are watching online away....
STOP educating the fishes who are watching online....

Just make some simple comments. Somebody tell this guy not to keeeeep taalking all the time. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[lighterjobs]

[ QUOTE ]
Request to commentators Shirley and the guy: Please stop bashing or making silly comments (like 'see this guy on seat 5 is calling with Q5o, 23s, A4o,...).

STOP scaring the fishes who are watching online away....
STOP educating the fishes who are watching online....

Just make some simple comments. Somebody tell this guy not to keeeeep taalking all the time. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yes it's apparent i need to make a trip to LA

edit- the guy is calling with 23o

[Russ McGinley]

OH.

MY.

GOD.

43o cripples seat 6's KK with a fourth spade on the turn. Brutal.

[VTDuffman]

Seat 5 is the type of guy responsible for my ~ -100 BB swing of late. Wow.

[z32fanatic]

KK no good against 34o. The best part about 34o is that you have 2 chances to make a one card flush.

[Corey]

[ QUOTE ]
Request to commentators Shirley and the guy: Please stop bashing or making silly comments

STOP scaring the fishes who are watching online away....
STOP educating the fishes who are watching online....

[/ QUOTE ]

Request for Shirley and Bart:

Keep making fun of seat 5. This is high quality entertainment.

Furthermore, talking about strategy on a live streaming cash game will not do anything to diminish the pool of fish.

[BarronVangorToth]

What's going through his head with such a colossal bad beat...?

Perhaps I should treat for a double round of expresso?

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Rocaix]

Seat 5 is on the rush of his life, the look on Seat 6's face when he connected with his 34o spade flush draw was priceless.

[Russ McGinley]

I think seat 5 might be Colin Quinn in disguise.

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
Request to commentators Shirley and the guy: Please stop bashing or making silly comments (like 'see this guy on seat 5 is calling with Q5o, 23s, A4o,...).

STOP scaring the fishes who are watching online away....
STOP educating the fishes who are watching online....

Just make some simple comments. Somebody tell this guy not to keeeeep taalking all the time. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Educating and bad talking players, bad for business all the way around. People watching might not see anything wrong with the play and the announcers would make them feel foolish. The announcers need to Vince Van Patten it up.

[sprint3000us]

Commentators, STOP scaring the fishes who are watching online away.... /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[BarronVangorToth]

2+2ers ... do you agree with that yet again horrible play that has entered the barrage of horrible plays of the night?

Announcers - these guys are worse than usual; just mock them.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Poker Pugilist]

[ QUOTE ]
The announcers need to Vince Van Patten it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go tanning?

[Corey]

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. Educating and bad talking players, bad for business all the way around. People watching might not see anything wrong with the play and the announcers would make them feel foolish. The announcers need to Vince Van Patten it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The simple discussions at 2+2 have much more of a chance to educate fish than Shirley and Bart making fun of seat 5.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
Bart : I like my aces in unraised pot. It's less likely aces are out there, so it's more likely I hit my set. Therefore, I don't raise!

(all joking aside for a weak tight nit you're a decent guy :P)

[/ QUOTE ]

My god, he starts with a premise and draws the wrong conclusion based on it.

Last week he was talking about how he doesn't like to raise aces in the Big Blind.

[VTDuffman]

I respectfully disagree. People who play like that have no clue that what they're doing is insane. Even if the announcers do make fun of people like seat 5, people who subscribe to this newsletter would retort "but he won the pot! 34o is g00000t!!!"

Most people who play this way will continue to do so regardless of what any internet announcers say. I promise. When moron in seat 5 is pulling down pot after pot with insane draws, it only helps re-enforce their mindset.

There will always be "producers," They will always play this way. The sky is not falling. Seat 5 deserves to be derided by people who know what they're doing, and praised by people who don't.

[sprint3000us]

Commentators, STOP educating the fishes who are watching online....

Thanks
/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Corey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bart : I like my aces in unraised pot. It's less likely aces are out there, so it's more likely I hit my set. Therefore, I don't raise!

(all joking aside for a weak tight nit you're a decent guy :P)

[/ QUOTE ]

My god, he starts with a premise and draws the wrong conclusion based on it.

Last week he was talking about how he doesn't like to raise aces in the Big Blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

In defense of Bart, he did not say this. We're just making fun of him for being weak-tight

[Russ McGinley]

Yes raising with A4s in the BB is not smart unless you are clairvoyant and you know the flop will come three to your suit.

And I will stop watching this the instant the commentators intentionally dumb themselves down to the level of the players for some false pretense of not teaching the fish, like all the fish in the world will suddenly learn the game by watching this mess. Who cares what the announcers say when the table fish has doubled his stack since we started watching?

[PuckNPoker]

Because people, in general, are ignorant NOT stupid. If 2 pros are saying this is the wrong thing to do, people will listen.

[Corey]

Seat 2 calls cold wth 3c4c then calls the 3-bet. Well, even my favorite player makes a mistake every once in a while

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bart : I like my aces in unraised pot. It's less likely aces are out there, so it's more likely I hit my set. Therefore, I don't raise!

(all joking aside for a weak tight nit you're a decent guy :P)

[/ QUOTE ]

My god, he starts with a premise and draws the wrong conclusion based on it.

Last week he was talking about how he doesn't like to raise aces in the Big Blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

In defense of Bart, he did not say this. We're just making fun of him for being weak-tight

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Bart. But I did hear you tell Greg Raymer that you don't like to raise with Aces out of the BB.

[Poker Pugilist]

Grumpy Old Men... seat 7

[Corey]

[ QUOTE ]
Because people, in general, are ignorant NOT stupid. If 2 pros are saying this is the wrong thing to do, people will listen.

[/ QUOTE ]

*Yawn*

[Corey]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry Bart. But I did hear you tell Greg Raymer that you don't like to raise with Aces out of the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Max, he didn't say the super weak-tight "quote", but he did reaffirm his willingness to check aces from the BB with 5 limpers in a limit game.

[Russ McGinley]

[ QUOTE ]
Because people, in general, are ignorant NOT stupid. If 2 pros are saying this is the wrong thing to do, people will listen.

[/ QUOTE ]

But your average internet fish doesn't know who these people are. There are people reading this thread right now who have no idea who they are. If Bart Hanson walked into the room right now with a sign around his neck that read "Hi, I'm Bart Hanson", I wouldn't know who he is. A fish doesn't hear "Calling with 3-2 offsuit is bad" when that player is dragging a monster pot because they can't think at that level. If they could think at that level, they would understand that calling with junk hands is bad play. There is not a fish out there that is thinking "Hey, I can play J-3 offsuit" but will totally change his mind because some announcer on some internet broadcast says its bad. He doesn't know why its bad, and until he's given substantial reasons why its bad, he will continue to do so. And even if he is given reasons, he will remember that one time he won a big pot with J3o and he doesn't want to lay it down for fear the flop will come J-3-3.

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because people, in general, are ignorant NOT stupid. If 2 pros are saying this is the wrong thing to do, people will listen.

[/ QUOTE ]

But your average internet fish doesn't know who these people are. There are people reading this thread right now who have no idea who they are. If Bart Hanson walked into the room right now with a sign around his neck that read "Hi, I'm Bart Hanson", I wouldn't know who he is. A fish doesn't hear "Calling with 3-2 offsuit is bad" when that player is dragging a monster pot because they can't think at that level. If they could think at that level, they would understand that calling with junk hands is bad play. There is not a fish out there that is thinking "Hey, I can play J-3 offsuit" but will totally change his mind because some announcer on some internet broadcast says its bad. He doesn't know why its bad, and until he's given substantial reasons why its bad, he will continue to do so. And even if he is given reasons, he will remember that one time he won a big pot with J3o and he doesn't want to lay it down for fear the flop will come J-3-3.

[/ QUOTE ]

One hand, yes I would agree, but them talking about how bad people are playing hand after hand, is bad. Bad because they are talking bad about a customer and bad because they are educating fish.

[Russ McGinley]

[ QUOTE ]
One hand, yes I would agree, but them talking about how bad people are playing hand after hand, is bad. Bad because they are talking bad about a customer and bad because they are educating fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are not "talking bad about a customer". They are analyzing and critiquing play, which is to be expected when your hole cards are being shown on a broadcast. Talking bad about him would be "The guy in seat 5 is just an idiot who is playing everything", which they are restraining from despite it being a challenge. Thinking that correctly analyzing poker play is "educating fish" is preposterous. Would it be better to listen to this show if Bart was saying how brilliant seat 5 has played all night? The audience for this show is likely comprised of mostly 2+2ers and RPGers and none of us want to hear stupid commentary like "Seat 5 is great!" when he is clearly not.

[RockPile]

This is my first time watching this.. Who are the commentators and what is the girls website she keeps talking about?

[SpeakEasy]

Seat 5 is ... Brian Austin Green.

http://www.famousdudes.com/pics/BrianAustinGreen/brian1.jpg

[Corey]

Shirley and Bart,

You handled these unfair criticisms well and tell nothing but the truth. But please keep making fun of seat 5! You are analysts after all

[Poker Pugilist]

Worse yet... what if these bad players find 2+2?

[PuckNPoker]

Bart &amp; Shirley,

Ignorance, is different than being stupid. You are saying people know they are playing bad and dont care. I disagree.

[VTDuffman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because people, in general, are ignorant NOT stupid. If 2 pros are saying this is the wrong thing to do, people will listen.

[/ QUOTE ]

But your average internet fish doesn't know who these people are. There are people reading this thread right now who have no idea who they are. If Bart Hanson walked into the room right now with a sign around his neck that read "Hi, I'm Bart Hanson", I wouldn't know who he is. A fish doesn't hear "Calling with 3-2 offsuit is bad" when that player is dragging a monster pot because they can't think at that level. If they could think at that level, they would understand that calling with junk hands is bad play. There is not a fish out there that is thinking "Hey, I can play J-3 offsuit" but will totally change his mind because some announcer on some internet broadcast says its bad. He doesn't know why its bad, and until he's given substantial reasons why its bad, he will continue to do so. And even if he is given reasons, he will remember that one time he won a big pot with J3o and he doesn't want to lay it down for fear the flop will come J-3-3.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said. Fish will always be fish, their brains are wired differently.

[Corey]

[ QUOTE ]
This is my first time watching this.. Who are the commentators and what is the girls website she keeps talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker Babes (http://www.poker-babes.com) is Shirley Rosario's website.

Both are prop players at the Bike. Denny (last name?) is usually the "play-by-play" guy and he is a tournament director at the bike.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
Worse yet... what if these bad players find 2+2?

[/ QUOTE ]


Like the other guy said, whatever, most of these people watching are poker marks as it is and it doesn't matter. Trying to keep 2+2 like some secret cult is ludicrous and counterproductive.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Russ McGinley]

[ QUOTE ]
Worse yet... what if these bad players find 2+2?

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are watching this broadcast, they've heard 2+2 about a million times. Sklansky isn't exactly keeping this site a secret, nor are they at The Bike. They will learn more reading the SSH or LLH forums than the friggin WPT forum.

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One hand, yes I would agree, but them talking about how bad people are playing hand after hand, is bad. Bad because they are talking bad about a customer and bad because they are educating fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are not "talking bad about a customer". They are analyzing and critiquing play, which is to be expected when your hole cards are being shown on a broadcast. Talking bad about him would be "The guy in seat 5 is just an idiot who is playing everything", which they are restraining from despite it being a challenge. Thinking that correctly analyzing poker play is "educating fish" is preposterous. Would it be better to listen to this show if Bart was saying how brilliant seat 5 has played all night? The audience for this show is likely comprised of mostly 2+2ers and RPGers and none of us want to hear stupid commentary like "Seat 5 is great!" when he is clearly not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont say they should lie. They should talk about what is happening about a hand, they can give odds for hitting a card, what cards people are drawing to, etc. And let the viewer figure it out. Just say "Seat 5 is drawing to 2 outs", and if he hits say "Seat 5 caught his card on the river". But to say the play is bad is educating people. If you wouldnt educate the fish at the table why would you do it away from the table?

[RockPile]

When did Nicholas Cage become a dealer?

[Corey]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont say they should lie. They should talk about what is happening about a hand, they can give odds for hitting a card, what cards people are drawing to, etc. And let the viewer figure it out. Just say "Seat 5 is drawing to 2 outs", and if he hits say "Seat 5 caught his card on the river". But to say the play is bad is educating people. If you wouldnt educate the fish at the table why would you do it away from the table?

[/ QUOTE ]

I reiterate: *Yawn*

[SpeakEasy]

Or Seat 5 may be ... George Michael.

http://home3.inet.tele.dk/c-4/photogallery/George_Michael.jpg

[PuckNPoker]

By the way, I dont consider this a big issue at all, I just think in principle it isnt a great idea. I cant imagine their traffic is big enough to matter.

[BarronVangorToth]

Bart: Shirley, let me tell you about about this idiotic notion some "pro" told me about when we were both doing 'shrooms in the parking lot. It involves this mathematically ludicrous concept of short buying and going all in on the small blind for no apparent reason.

Shirley: huh.... yeah.... let me think about that at some point when nothing else relevant in the universe is worth considering.


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Corey]

:cues Ellix Powers:

HE SO MAD HE CALLED ME WIT JACK HIGH!

JACK HIGH

I AIN'T NEVER CALLED NO ONE WITH JACK HIGH

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
Commentators, STOP educating the fishes who are watching online....

Thanks
/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Fortuanltly Bart talks more than Shirley /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PuckNPoker]

You get free shrooms with 8 points on your Bike Classic Club card

[Corey]

Come on girl, bet the river. You're officially my favorite 8/16 player and this every time you've checked down the river!

[Russ McGinley]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, I dont consider this a big issue at all, I just think in principle it isnt a great idea. I cant imagine their traffic is big enough to matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like Shirley said, they are not going to curtail their actual thoughts to avoid teaching a handful of people that playing moronic cards is a bad play. I would imagine that the majority of the people watching this broadcast know enough about the game to know that the play of seat 5 has been pretty stupid, and while you can follow that up by saying "Then why bother saying anything", as a poker enthusiast, I don't want to listen to bland analysis like "He's drawing to two outs". Not to mention I am not a limit poker champion and since Bart and Shirley play poker for a living, I am interested in their analysis of hands to see if I am correct in MY analysis, and if not, then I might learn something. I also wouldn't mind being entertained by the broadcast, and if they aren't going to provide any analysis past "Seat 5 has two outs", then they might as well get rid of the announcers and we can listen to the table chatter. I am not worried in the least about any fish education in this broadcast because there are plenty of fish in the sea.

[PuckNPoker]

How come Shirley wont educate people regarding Omaha play?

[lawpoker]

yes, apparently it's always bad to play with fish. learn to adjust your game.

[BarronVangorToth]

I agree with Shirley's point that people that constantly ask to see the hands are annoying as all hell (Tommy Angelo wrote a fine article about why this rule shouldn't be in place on his site) but, something I've discovered, albeit with a sample size this site won't approve of, is that almost never are these people that ask to see the hands good at all. It is the ultimate tell.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Corey]

My girl's on tilt for no apparent reason. At least she didn't lose her stack to 37o.

It's funny to see a non-middle-aged-Asian-woman on tilt. Don't see it much.

[Russ McGinley]

Its been awhile since seat 5 put a pathetic beat on anyone.

[BarronVangorToth]

Bart: some places have a 5/10 structure.

Shirley: really, are you sure?

Bart: yes, in civilization: CT at Foxwoods.

[PuckNPoker]

They got the cards wrong that time. They said 6d was out twice.

[CrazyN8]

finally..I am here! Good to hear they are going to archive this now.

Is seat 5 the same guy as earlier?

A lot more chip tricks at this table than the 200NL game.

[Russ McGinley]

Yeah the guy in seat 5 has been there all night and is down about two racks from his highest from about 1 1/2 hours ago. I see him fold preflop maybe once an orbit, and that's if he's playing tight.

[sprint3000us]

Say for example a guy tells his wife or gf to watch 'live at the bike' online when he goes to play at the bike at the 'TV' table to see how 'great' he is playing so that she would allow him to play more.

He comes in to the Bike. Sits at Seat 5 and starts playing his 'great' game(playing Q5o, 73o, A4o, 43o,...). Now the commentator tells how bad he is playing. How he is going to lose his chips. Guess what happens when he gets home ?

[BarronVangorToth]

I must be the only person who wishes every casino had chips that equaled the structure. For efficiency's sake, like in a 8/16 game, $4 chips are all you need -- 1 = SB and 2 = BB.

Done. Much easier.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[PuckNPoker]

More chips = More action

[CrazyN8]

is 7 any good? He's got a mountain of chips.

[BarronVangorToth]

Yes, I know that's what people think. But it wastes a moderate amount of time as the dealer has to organize it, shove it, but most importantly, it leads to players putting out incorrect amounts. Tonight a number of times the wrong amounts were initially put out.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[CrazyN8]

Is that a bad thing? Fast dealer = more hands = more rake

[Russ McGinley]

[ QUOTE ]
Say for example a guy tells his wife or gf to watch 'live at the bike' online when he goes to play at the bike at the 'TV' table to see how 'great' he is playing so that she would allow him to play more.

He comes in to the Bike. Sits at Seat 5 and starts playing his 'great' game(playing Q5o, 73o, A4o, 43o,...). Now the commentator tells how bad he is playing. How he is going to lose his chips. Guess what happens when he gets home ?

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL!

It doesn't matter what anyone says, if he comes home with no money he won't be playing anymore if his leash is tightened. You really think someone's wife/girlfriend who is against him playing poker is going to care that he plays "good or bad" according to the announcers? If he comes home with money = good; if he comes home with no money = bad.

[InchoateHand]

two plus two today.

[CrazyN8]

[ QUOTE ]
If he comes home with money = good; if he comes home with no money = bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHA...no joke. Fortunately my GF still lets me play. Of coarse, she's not too bad at "the poker", either.

[CrazyN8]

wow...seat 5 just answered my question.

[TheShootah]

Look at this crap. The champ in Seat 5 cold calls with 27, and then calls the flop, with practically the worst hand. Holy crap. I am losin it....GET ME IN THIS GAME!

[CrazyN8]

wow...seat 5 just answered my question.

Haha..."Guts"...I call that my new Dell Monitor (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/ProductDetail.aspx?c=us&amp;l=en&amp;cs=19&amp;sku=320-1578&amp;category_id=4009)

So excited...ordered her this morning!!!

Hahha..strip poker? Where's Denny at NOW?

[Russ McGinley]

Seat 5 is close to the felt. Amazing to remember him with 4 full racks in front of him not 2 hours ago. Although you call raises with the worst hand in poker you don't usually have chips afterwards.

[BarronVangorToth]

Bart: Was this a strip poker game? Were the girls all oiled up and fondling each other?

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[BarronVangorToth]

And the champ gets rockets for one of the last hands....

[Russ McGinley]

And plays it perfectly by checking the turn and river with the nut flush draw and overpair. I guess he doesn't know how to play hands when the two cards are both above 7.

[CrazyN8]

He's talking about the 200NL game from a few saturdays ago, no?

[Shanemex]

And he got full value for them.

[CrazyN8]

Does it not bother anyone that all these people play out of the rack?

[Russ McGinley]

Yep, although with all the chips flying around, I guess they kinda have to.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
Does it not bother anyone that all these people play out of the rack?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fish really like to play out of the rack. I got a ton of [censored] for not playing out of a rack in one mirage game when i was there a few weeks ago.

[jana]

thanks. appreciate that /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jana]

wow...i take back my previous nice reply....didn't get to this one...i'm not "all that" huh? /images/graemlins/smile.gif
thanks.. guess i'll settle for being the least ugly chick in the room. funny.

[jana]

ok. name one of the hands when the river didn't make EVERY draw? also, every single time i DIDN"T bet the river, the other player/s showed their hands and had missed draws. no way i get a bet out of them, only get raised if they got there.

just a thought. but hey, i'm the "not all that good looking" chick at the table...what do i know /images/graemlins/smile.gif

i'l still take the first compliment though and run w/ it...

p.s. don't know if anyone noticed, but i won 3 racks at that table and never showed down ANYTHING more than ONE PAIR. it's not like i was actually "hitting" hands...

[jana]

okok...NOW you're killing me, friend.
i POSTED behind the button. then called ONE raise from the MANIAC...then when the 5 seat (crazy to say the least) 3 bets and the MANIAC caps (he caps A-J off here) what should i do, much 3-4clubs w/ POSITION 7 way cap?

no i'm really asking. my thinking here is that a) ALL my draws are good...2 pari, straight, flush,e tc b) these guys will call me w/ just over cards and i don't put any of them on ANYTHING that's detramental to me (aka AKclubs etc) c) i'm in position so if i flop any kind of draw, pair w/ back door, etc i can raise the flop and DEFINITLEY get a free card on the turn.

ok ok... i gotta go to bed...just heard you guys were talking about me and i thought i'd see what was going on

/images/graemlins/smile.gif
it was a pleasure,
jana

[Kaz The Original]

Bet the river. There were a NUMBER of hands where you would have gotten called. I know it feels like, when playing low limit, you are dodging bullets the whole way there, and you don't want to suffer the ignomity of river raise or check raise, but oh so much money is made from their middle pair or buttom pair or ace high calls on the river.

BTW - There were alot of people commenting on how you were the ONLY good player at the table. And you were : )

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
Worse yet... what if these bad players find 2+2?

[/ QUOTE ]

At the Commerce 2+2 books are displayed prominantly in the gift shop and still 95% of the players play like crap. I wouldn't worry about it.

[jana]

i hear you, babe. but i STILL defend my play. here are like the ONLY 3 hands i played

1) i had 10-10 on the cutoff, it was raised early, 2 flat calles i 3 bet, BB called everyone called. the board was 9 high w/ 2 diamonds. the all checked, i confidently bet. 3 callers. turn is a brick. i bet 2 calles. river is a small diamond that makes random straights and obvious flush. (not to mention random two pair from these people).

2) i had QQ same sitation. raised early and flat called in 3 places, i 3 bet, the BB CAPS! the board is K-7-3 rainbow, it check to me, i grit and bet. turn is now a J (scary card. i'm still expecting a check raise from the capper) but when it checks to me i grit and bet AGAIN (i think thats ballsy)...but here the MIDDLE pair did pair on the river when the 3rd 7 hit. do you bet now??? what am i beating? NOTHING. there are a bunch of missed draw. maybe a random jack but still 4 people on the river and NONE called me down w/ random middle pair (A-7 suited i give them...pealing)

3) i had Ks-10c in the BB...the board came down all A-10-5 (all spades) i bet out, i'm not heads up w/ the 5 seat (who could have ANY two cards, as we both know). i bet the turn when a brick hits and then when another brick hits i check w/ the intention of letting him bluff his missed draw and me calling. otherwise i don't get a bet out of him unless he ha the A and i'm beat.

my positionin ALL 3 cases is still the same....it's ALMOST impossible for me to get called on the river when i'm not beat in ALL of those hands..

thanks again for the nice stuff and if you're ever in LA say hi...you know where to find me /images/graemlins/wink.gif

p.s. still can't forgive you completely for the "not that hot" commment....

[Russ McGinley]

You were far and away the best player on the table, with seat 7 the closest. In a game where you have several players who play any two cards, sometimes its okay to check w/the intention of calling a fish who thinks his 3rd pair is good or allow missed draws to bluff.

BTW, it was hilarious watching seat 5 play. It was funny too when he was up to about 4 full racks, Bart (or Shirley, can't remember) said that they expected him to be down to the felt within two hours, and sure enough, two hours later, he was down to about 1/2 a rack. Him taking his powerhouse 7-3o against your QQ and seat 6's AK and flopping trips was brutal to watch and also highly comical.

[PuckNPoker]

If seat 5 was in any of the hands, you would have definitely made 1 bet from, he paid off the river several times with no pair, one time he had Q high (and paid off the river). Against the bad players on your table you need to value bet more since they are calling down with anything and nobody has given you a reason to slow down. The whole table didnt value bet the river ever, it isnt just you.

[Michael Davis]

"my positionin ALL 3 cases is still the same....it's ALMOST impossible for me to get called on the river when i'm not beat in ALL of those hands.."

I didn't see the hands, but this can't be true. Having middle pair with boss kicker and never being raised the entire time is an easy value bet on the river, generally.

Hand 2 is close, and the general loose-passiveness of the game probably swings your hand to a check. It is tough to get paid there by anything that you beat. You will, but more often you'll bet and somebody will call with a winner. They'll even just call with a 7 because they fear monsters.

Hand #1 is a bet unless the baby diamond put four consectutive straight cards.

If you are making money playing hold 'em, a significant portion of your profits comes from finding thin and not-so-thin value bets on the river. What are the implications of player A finding an extra value bet every two hours over player B?

-Michael

[Piers]

Three data points; how often were you right? How often do you need to be right for betting the river bet to be the correct action?

No idea if this apples to you, but personally I think most people who regularly wimp out on the river, do so to avoid the embarrassment of being raised or check raised; and because they do not want to give the opponent the satisfaction of getting a raise in. What is more important ones ego or the money? Don’t kid yourself that’s what all your opponents were doing.

[ QUOTE ]
p.s. still can't forgive you completely for the "not that hot" commment....

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey that was'nt me /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Kaz The Original]

Well, I will not debate the startegy side here, as alot of it depends on a few things which very. What I would like to make very clear is that not once did I say you were not that hot. In fact my post was "she's a total babe!". Have to clear these things up!

Regardless, well played, and hopefully I can take some chips off you if I'm ever down at the Bike.

[jana]

alright boys...i read all the posts...i hear your points ...but i guess the HUGE advantage you guys had over me last night is you got to see the cards these people were calling down with. i mean, after the taping, the commentators came over to me and were like "wow! you have NO idea the rags they'd call you with".

so as much as i knew they were WEAK even HORRIBLE it's still very very hard to think that (even seat 5) will call me down with Q high!! i mean honestly...

i don't think i didn't bet the river because i'd be "embarrased" to get raised...it's more the "i don't think it's PROFITABLE to bet here because a) i don't see i hand i legitimately get called with b) if i DO get RAISED i HAVE to call KNOWING i'm beat and that's the worst"...not ego wise but money wise.

so anyway, waht i'm saying is, most of the time these maniacs called down THEY DID NOT ACTUALLY SHOW their cards so i had very little information about how horrible they were (like i have no idea what seat 5 capped wfrom the BB when i had QQ and then called me all the way down w/ on a k-7-3-j-7 board that DIDN"T beat me....10-10?s A-q? i dont' know).

but i take all your comments to heart and would welcome you to my 8-16 game any time (note i'm starting to prop at the bike next week so you won't be able to miss me)...

/images/graemlins/wink.gif
later

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]

(like i have no idea what seat 5 capped wfrom the BB when i had QQ and then called me all the way down w/ on a k-7-3-j-7 board that DIDN"T beat me....10-10?s A-q? i dont' know).



[/ QUOTE ]

If I recall the hand correctly, I think he had ATs...


[ QUOTE ]
but i take all your comments to heart and would welcome you to my 8-16 game any time (note i'm starting to prop at the bike next week so you won't be able to miss me)...

[/ QUOTE ]

Shirley was saying how the players at the 8/16 were usually better than this (outside you &amp; Seat 3 who were very solid) so it is quite possible you were used to playing against tighter/better players. Good luck on propping.

[GreywolfNYC]

I watched this thread for the first time last night. What a donkfest. Makes me want to move to L.A.

[CrazyN8]

Did he not also call a raise w/ 72o in the BB against your Ks?

Man, I should pay more attention...didn't notice the looks. Well, couldn't see any cleavage so I guess I was paying attention...just kiddin'...those who watched saturday night will get that. Nice work fleecing the boys!

EDIT: You're a prop? Good luck with that!

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
Did he not also call a raise w/ 72o in the BB against your Ks?



[/ QUOTE ]
If I remeber correctly he also called the flop with nothing /images/graemlins/grin.gif, hit a 2 on the turn so was going to pay off the whole way.

[Corey]

Jana,

You apparently hate me for the not that hot comment and I deserve. I agreed with some of your checks on the river and actually not betting the river is a problem I run into often, however I think I bet a couple of the top pair hands against seat 5 as he showed even if he hit his hand he would just call anyway. That being said, I watched you win 3 racks while I was grinding out a bonus at 1/2. I wonder who's on the short end of that stick.

Also, neither the commentators nor myself saw you post before the button on 3c4c. With the post in the CO, I understand the calls.

[jana]

oh...that makes sense now...if you didn't see me post w/ the 3-4clubs then i'm sure it looked INSANE!

good luck w/ the 1-2 online...if it makes you feel better, i can't beat those low limit games online...so better you than me.

see you all at the bike!!