Outsourcing Poker

[Shaman]

This is just hypothetical.

What steps would you take to make a math PhD or chess wiz (or both) from a third world country good enough to make one big bet/hour per table 8-tabling at 4-8 holdem or lower?

Phd's in places like India and Thailand make less than $100 per month. Chess champions who are school dropouts make far less. What would you do to train them? How about if you just bankrolled them at microlimits and gave them good reading materials (having a PhD implies that they know how to study) so that they could just teach themselves? And when they're ready, you can make them play higher.

Better yet, you bankroll them at microlimits. Once they've built it up to a 2-4 bankroll, you start paying them a salary and bonuses. But not until they get to this level. Remember, many of these people make less than 100 bucks per month.

Are math PhDs and chess wizzes the best candidates in the first place?

[steaknshake925]

You would probly have to make them sign contracts to play a certain number of years because after awhile they'd be smart enough to figure out that its more profitable to just play for themselves.

[k_squared]

No one who will have access to the resources to play poker online successfully will play for less money than they would make playing... especially at the limits you are talking about. They are seeing the bottom line that they are producing and they would have no need of you to bankroll them at those limits. They could build their own bankroll relatively quickly even to play at 2-4.... especially with bonuses.

It might work at higher limits, but then the bankroll risk is a lot higher... For example you could train and then pay people to play at 30-60 limit paying them a percentage of their winnings... because getting a bankroll to play that high is not easy, and they would probably make more money by just taking the percentage and playing for you then by playing at a lower limit...

But then the issue is that the difference between the difficulty in building a sufficient bankroll and the payoff needs to be in such a way that they make more by playing for you than by simply playing for themselves.

-k_squared

[Shaman]

You could lock them into you by paying them their share "commission" only after they have already played 10,000,000 hands or so. As long as they have not yet played this many hands, they'll just receive a very low salary of less than $100 per month. If they have already played their 4,000,000th hand, they are just going to have to conclude that they might as well go for 10,000,000.

But you have to be ready for their resignations once they hit this number because at that point, they'll just say "to hell with you for exploiting my dire financial situation".

[dr_venkman]

[ QUOTE ]
You would probly have to make them sign contracts to play a certain number of years because after awhile they'd be smart enough to figure out that its more profitable to just play for themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget this is India and Thailand we're talking about. At the slightest inssurection you always have the option of beating your employees with a rattan cane.

[BarronVangorToth]

The key would be to have a level of middle management in the, er, middle, so that the people at the end didn't know what they were making. Just that they had to "play well."

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Shaman]

You have perked up my curiousity! But the question is, How would you do that?

And how would the people in the end know how well they are playing if they do not have access to their own long term results? Should the middle manager just give them grades like, "You scored a B+ in the past 500,000 hands"?

[irongarden]

[ QUOTE ]
You would probly have to make them sign contracts to play a certain number of years because after awhile they'd be smart enough to figure out that its more profitable to just play for themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that such contracts are basically unenforcable in 3rd world countries. If someone is smart enough to play poker for you in Bangkok, he's also smart enough to take the first $100 you give him and start building a bankroll at Microlimits.

The only thing going in your favor is that doing the type of banking required to play from Thailand isn't trivial. Neteller won't let you withdraw from Thailand, and you can't do online checks with Thai banks.

[JihadOnTheRiver]

Dangle a bowl of rice in front of the computer and break out the whip...

-Durka Durka

[BluffTHIS!]

Well then hypothetically what you do is to ship them to a remote island in the pacific with no regualer forms of transportation, a container load of computers and poker books, seeds for growing their own vegetables and fish hooks for catching same, several bicycle powered generators to provide electricity and of course a satellite T1 line. Now then, you make them sign contracts for the cost of getting them there and all the materials, and charge in the neighborhood of 75% interest compounded monthly. You promise them that when they have worked off their debt, you will deposit them with their new-found poker pro abilities, back to a port in their home countries with 10K cash in their pockets. However since they have no chance of working this debt off even making 10bb/hour, you also ship in women to work the fields and provide the next generation of your poker slaves. All you have to figure out is what ominous sounding name to go by as their king/owner.

[TStoneMBD]

heres what you do:

you get a programmer to make you a skin for party that does not show what limit a player is playing at.

you get a really cheap laptop and set up network restrictions so that the laptop cannot be used for anything other than your party poker skin and twoplustwo.com or whatnot. this way they are not capable of researching how to get into online poker themselves with their own bankrolls. they probably dont have access to the internet from a source other than your laptop anyway, and would have to purchase their own computers in order to install their own poker software.

setup radmin on the laptop. radmin is a program (short for remote administrator.) you can get the program off download.com. its a application that you run on a computer, and you can access that computer from anywhere in the world. you are able to control the mouse along with anything that the person who is using the computer can control.

give the person in india the laptop and you can monitor his play by using radmin, while making sure that he is playing at the right table stakes. you could have the party skin have restrictions as to what limits it allows. for instance, you could create a party skin for each limit online, from 1/2 to 30/60. you could require a password for the person on your laptop to open any of these applications, and as the players progress in their abilities you slowly unvail the passwords so that they can climb the limit ladders.

now if you have an issue of trust with your indian players and are worried that they will steal your laptops, you can set up a storefront in india where you have security camers monitoring the area, with somebody working at the store to make sure that the laptops are not stolen. have your players come to the shop to play on your laptops there.

if you dont want to spend the money for a programmer to do this for you, or you find that it is simply not possible to do this without the source code of party poker, you can still install a normal party poker application on the laptops. it will be a long time until your players decide that its more sensible for them to build their own bankrolls and play for themselves as they would be forced to purchase their own computers.

[Prowler]

LOL!

This has to be one of the funniest strings I've read in ages!

Thankyou!

[sprint3000us]

They wouldn't be playing for you after couple of months. You dumb ass.

[JonLines]

Why do you all think they would start up on their own?

Assume they are averaging $500 a month. You pay them $300 a month, this is more than 3 times their previous earnings, why would they risk such a highly paid, and risk free job, for a crack at going out alone?

Think of all the people you know who know they could start up on their own in their line of business, do they? Of course they don't, they have children to feed, mortgages to pay. If these people were the kind of people to take risks they probably wouldn't be the people earning sub $100 a month.

They are math wizards, not entrepreneurs.

I think this is a great idea, anyone fancy joining me in buying a warehouse in India?

[irongarden]

[ QUOTE ]
Assume they are averaging $500 a month. You pay them $300 a month, this is more than 3 times their previous earnings, why would they risk such a highly paid, and risk free job, for a crack at going out alone?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't underestimate the power of human greed. As soon as one of them is successful, you'll lose all of them.

[Shaman]

[ QUOTE ]
Assume they are averaging $500 a month. You pay them $300 a month, this is more than 3 times their previous earnings, why would they risk such a highly paid, and risk free job, for a crack at going out alone?

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are only making $500/month multi-tabling at 4-8, they're not worth it. They should be making $40/hour playing 8 tables (that's $5 per table - 63% of a big bet)at this level. At 40 hours per week, that would be 6k per month. Pay them 3% or $180, which is already higher than what they already make. And promise them that they will get 20% of what they will have earned for you after 4 to 8 million hands played, sort of like a performance-based long-term stock option. This will keep them committed to you and at the same time serve as motivation to play well.

After you have paid them the 20% that they earned after 4 to 8 million hours working for you, they will be relatively rich in their very poor countries and would probably stop playing for you. The witholding of 20% is critical in order for you not to be screwed. Remember, you are taking all of the risks.

[oscark]

This idea has already been tried. I know two different sets of people who opened something similar to what you described. And for some of the reasons you all have thought of and for some you haven't, both operations failed.

[gergery]

The laws of Economics and Competitive Strategy would send this to a quick death

[Trainwreck]

Where do I see the chess champions that make under $100 a month statistics?
Sounds like something pulled out from someone's hindquarters, made me laugh though.

I have always heard that programmers got heavily outsourced to India and they make 6 or 7 bucks an hour there, apparently minimal wage here wonderful elsewhere, pretty sick!

>TW<

[asswasp]

Easy. Just become a poker site affiliate such that you get a percentage of their rake. Then go to india and hand out flyers.

[jackdaniels]

I think you have the right idea, wrong game.

What you want to do is let them play the $20 SNG's with a Saabpo style strategy. Thus, they learn almost nothing about the game itself but are mearly circumventing the anti-bot policy (while being able to work 24 hours/day - 7 days a week). Even with meager returns, the salaries paid to said employees would be low enough to make a profit. Rinse and repeat anywhere the workforce is cheap enough.

[Shaman]

[ QUOTE ]
heres what you do: you get a programmer to make you a skin for party that does not show what limit a player is playing at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. If it does not show what limit a player is playing at, what does it show - betting units?

[Shaman]

Is it possible to make it look like there are no dollar signs? Just betting units. Thanks.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it possible to make it look like there are no dollar signs? Just betting units. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, you'd want to change the units to make it seem smaller, right?

People at $15/30 would think they are playing .5/1

[TStoneMBD]

i really am not the guy to talk to about whether you can do that or not. youd really have to talk to an experienced programmer. #C++ on the efnet servers could probably help you.

[Bjorn]

Now I don't know about india (but my guess is that it is similiar) but the company i work for has offices in Bankok, Thailand and I can assure you that you won't find a PhD working for anything close to $100/month.

Our programers and testers make something in the region of $1000/month and they generaly "only" have an MSc or BSc degree. (That's still only about a quarter of what the equivalent person makes in europe though and even less when you figure in other employee related costs.)

/Bjorn

[Hellmouth]

To keep people from knowing how much money they were making you you just set them up with a computer loaded with tweaked poker site software. It automatically loads the proper bet levels (for their play ability) and makes them play using big and small bet counts instead of actual money counts. As they get better you switch them to higher limits. They get salary and bonuses based on their BB/hour and #hours of play. They theoretically have no idea how much money they are making you and therefore have no incentive to leave a lucritive job. (and if they do there is always the rattan cane) /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Edit: I didnt read down far enough to realize that this was already mentioned above.

Greg (always working to make the world a better place)

[Shaman]

[ QUOTE ]
To keep people from knowing how much money they were making you you just set them up with a computer loaded with tweaked poker site software. It automatically loads the proper bet levels (for their play ability) and makes them play using big and small bet counts instead of actual money counts. As they get better you switch them to higher limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please elaborate on the term "tweaked poker site software"? How accessible are these?

[FrankieFish]

Why are they gonna work for you if they can work for themselves?

[ggbman]

Not that i think this idea would work in general, but i think offering the people a percentage of their winnings back would entice thme to play better and establish more loyalty, allowing you to hold onto the players for longer periods of time.

[Boopotts]

If a guy had access to 3rd world PhD's he would do much better by teaching them how to scalp/middle sporting events and putting them in front of the Don Best ticker.

[touchfaith]

Was only a matter of time before someone came up with the Poker Sweatshop idea /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Maybe Kathy-Lee is looking for a new investment idea /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[r3vbr]

Americans are truly NOTION-LESS
I mean, who can believe that someone with a PHD or a math-genious will work for 100$ a month.

Here in Brazil, 100$ a month is minimum wage, and that's what people on the simplest professions make (public bathroom janitor, heavy duty construction workers, etc).

A janitor at a school would make a bit more than $200 i guess.

A entry-level intern (typist, office-boy) earns about 200 as well.
A PhD in math would make at least $1200 a month.. at LEAST.

By the way, I think less than 0,1% of the population or 1 in 1000 has a PhD


Thailand must be about 70% of what people here make.

[barongreenback]

[ QUOTE ]
Americans are truly NOTION-LESS


[/ QUOTE ]
This has it about right.
"Lets take take some of the smartest people in the world and dupe them. They may real clever and well educated but they're from the 3rd world and I'm American so it'll be a cakewalk."
What's wrong with this picture.
As for you tutoring them, it'll probably take them a couple of days work on their own for them to surpass you.

[barongreenback]

I've wondered about the possibilities for these countries using poker systematically as a way of sucking in some cash from abroad. It'd likely be peanuts compared to the cash generated by industry.

Still I wonder just how good at poker a state sponsored team could get. I'm thinking of the Soviet era chess programs.

The quality of poker has never been pushed as far as chess or other sports. It's held back by being individulistic and has too much emphasis placed on finding weaker opponents rather than improving your game.

[JonLines]

[ QUOTE ]
Americans are truly NOTION-LESS

[/ QUOTE ]

I am English, not American.

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, I think less than 0,1% of the population or 1 in 1000 has a PhD

[/ QUOTE ]


Less than 0.1% of the population has a PhD... your probably right, but when the population in India is 1 BILLION PEOPLE, that's still quite a few people to pick from.

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, who can believe that someone with a PHD or a math-genious will work for 100$ a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is a quote from an article I found.... 'the average wage in India is about £300 a year compared with more than £20,000 in Britain'
So the average wage is US$50 a month.
The average wage in Brazil is apparently, US$179/month, so your fellow country men earn more than 3 times that of someone who lives in India. So going by the fact you say someone with a maths PhD would earn at least $1200 a month, then you could probably get away with $350-400 a month in India.
Does anyone know if they have benefits for job seekers in India? I expect the answer to this will be no (couldn't find it on goggle), which is why I expect you could quite easily keep someone in this job. If they have a family to feed, they will keep working. While the western world may be able to bum around claiming benefits if they decide they cant be bothered to work for such pittance, other countries don't have the privilege. I expect they are also not so kind on people going bankrupt, which is why I still think theoretically this would work.

[r3vbr]

Just because the GENERAL average of people is 1/3 of Brazil (wich is not, because minimum wage here is under 100$) you assume that the average of PHDs will also be at the same proportion?!?!?!?!
What kind of false-logic is that?
Couldnt the "average wage" be lower because there are LESS PHDs (in relation to the total population size). But the few PHDs on India may well earn even MORE then brazilian ones (due to the lack of supply on the supply/demmand scale).

[JonLines]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because the GENERAL average of people is 1/3 of Brazil (wich is not, because minimum wage here is under 100$)

[/ QUOTE ]

Now who has the false logic? Your average wage IS more than 3 times that of India's average wage, look it up on google. Just because your MINIMUM wage is under $100 doesn't mean your average isn't $179. The Minimum wage in India is nearer to $25 a month (still getting more than 3 times aren't you).

[ QUOTE ]
Couldnt the "average wage" be lower because there are LESS PHDs (in relation to the total population size). But the few PHDs on India may well earn even MORE then brazilian ones (due to the lack of supply on the supply/demmand scale).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that you cannot just assume the same ratio of wages between two countries to be the same for the educated and uneducated, I was just using this as a guide, but to think that they would earn MORE, is just absurd.

India has the biggest outsourcing economy in the world, you think they have this by having an uneducated work force? You think that countries like England would outsource to India if the educated work force costs MORE than other countries? India is the biggest outsourcing country in the world because it has a cheap, well educated work force.

You want to talk about the supply demand scale? There isn't a small number of well educated people who employers are offering absurd wages to, in order to entice them to work, there is a very large number of well educated people, who are willing to cut their wages in order to get a job. The supply exceeds the demand.

[Wabby]

Regarding Thailand, don´t forget that playing cards are strictly forbidden, and you will have to bribe the police with a substantial amount to keep you and your workers out of jail /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You would probly have to make them sign contracts to play a certain number of years because after awhile they'd be smart enough to figure out that its more profitable to just play for themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget this is India and Thailand we're talking about. At the slightest inssurection you always have the option of beating your employees with a rattan cane.

[/ QUOTE ]

thailand phds dont make <100/month

[ThinkQuick]

OK look, Obviously the OP hasn't fully researched the wages because this post is a fanciful brainstorming session. It's also really funny and I would love to imagine owning my own 40C (100Farenheit) factory filled with hard working labourers at computers with stacks of highlighted and dog-eared books in front of them.
And everyone already knows Americans are really conceited and stuff so you don't need to attack them here, jeeeez.

[Girchuck]

You could do better than that
Write a good bot that will tell your workers which buttons to push. Train them to push buttons and chat, but do not provide any poker training at all. If you train them to chat properly and program the bot well, there is no way anyone will suspect that the bot is playing and your employees will never leave you and you don't need the PhD level.