Party 100 - 6 Max

[radioheadfan]

I've been at the table for about 4 orbits. Don't know much about villian yet. We both have $100 behind.

I'm in the SB with 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Villian is UTG and raises to $4. All fold to me and I call. BB folds. Heads up.

Flop is:

7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif

I Check. He bets $5. I call.

Turn:

9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check. He bets $10. I call.

River:

T /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet $12. He raises $24 more. I call.

Comments on all streets please.

[tbach24]

I might fold PF. Everything else is fine except I raise the flop and fold the river.

[mosch]

I suggest that you just use the player-to-player transfer button instead of calling on the river.

It cuts down on the rake.

[schwza]

i'd fold pre-flop. getting cute calling raises with SC's is best done in position.

i'd lead the flop, for about 8. if he raises (to say, 25), you'll have a nice push. he'd have a tough call there with an overpair or AT, and if he does find the call, you're about a coinflip.

one reason i don't like the check-call on the flop is that i (personally) would never play a made hand that way. when someone else does play it that way, my primary read is always the flush draw. out of position with a well-defined hand (and when villain may just have overs), it's tough to get paid off if you hit.

i would bet the turn. you have a ton of outs and just picked up 3 more, and this will prevent you from being run off the hand if villain has AK.

i don't really like a blocking bet on the end. too much chance he'll bluff-raise and force you to fold (which you should've done, IMO). he's shown a willingness to underbet - i'd prefer a check-call if you think he'll bluff at it.

[greg nice]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd fold pre-flop. getting cute calling raises with SC's is best done in position.

[/ QUOTE ]

end of story

[jhall23]

Schwza and Greg, regarding position and calling with SC's.

Now if instead of it being folded around to you there were say 2-3 limpers your position is now pretty good right? Because you have everyone acting after the PF raiser who can follow up and then you trap more money in if you hit. PP's are any easy call but still trying to round out when to call with the SC's.

[schwza]

you mean cold-callers, right?

i think it would be marginally better to call with a SC in that case, but i still wouldn't recommend it. a drawing hand really needs position on all streets, so while having favorable position relative to the PFR, it's still pretty bad to act first.

also a chance your flush will not be good if there are many players. all in all, i'd dump it regardless of how many cold callers.

but i would be happy to hear others' opinions on this, as i may have never actually cold-called with a SC until last night.

[bobbyi]

You have a ton of outs and only one opponent, and you could even have the best hand (e.g., he has AK). I think you need to make a play for the pot before the river. I really hate check-calling the flop and turn here.

[jhall23]

Yes cold-callers that was a typo. Good points though:

I think it is still pretty marginal barring some really good reads on the table. Flop would be the only round where your position would be ideal so youd really be looking to flop the straight+flush draw so you could check-raise all in, but how often is that going to happen.

So ideally you want to be in LP and have the CO/Button raise and then a few cold-callers with the SC's as senior ciaffone advocates.

[schwza]

even better is a utg raiser and you're the 4th cold-caller on the button. then you have absolute and relative position.

against a PFR'er who is weak/bad post flop, you'd probably prefer to be heads up.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

You can get all of your chips in, on the flop is fine given your ahead of every hand but A7 and a set. Players at NL100 are not weak/good enough they'll fold their over pairs to anything but a push on the flop and then rarely.

The turn is also a great place for a CR/push. Since your out of position you would love for him to check since a free card helps you more then hurts you. CR/push is nice since more people will laydown their over pairs here given there are so many hands that beat them now and this is the line they are used to from huge hands.

if I got to the river here, I'd check fold to any bet over 1/4 the pot. Very rarely will they bet with out a hand that middle pair beats. They usually check as reasonable player puts you on a Ten or a flush draw and their bet has no real value.

I'm ATM so I would have called with Ace high in that spot since busted flush draws will also bet this river hoping to take the pot away once the flop top pair pairs. This could get some calls he'd normally not get, so I can't fault the bet, but I'd vomit when it got raised.

Given the deeper stacks and NL100 players inablility to lay down hands I think floating long with these kinds of hands out of position are ok if you can get them to gamble with you. If they won't gamble with you, then you'll need to start gambling more, but you'll have to have good control over your opponents and your opponents will have to be willing to take the maniac on.

Later,
MarkV.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

100BB stacks are going to be a learning curve for a lot of people.

People are not going to gamble with you in tiny unraised pots, they are going to not go broke in unraised pots unless they are bad.

So you'll have to get extra lucky and catch flush over str8 or set over set to make the big bucks.

You don't have to play SC for a raise to make money, but you'll want to learn because once the stacks start getting deeper you will want to because the implied odds of catching that gutshot on the turn.

I was playing last night and the table I was at had several 250BB+ stacks and a few of them were unable to get away from sets non-nut str8s and middle flushes. Of course this could be a good reason to not play SC, but if you never try you'll never learn.

Later,
MarkV.

[radioheadfan]

Some things to consider here:

Leading out the flop lets villian off the hook when he has overs and plays weak tight (common at this level). He will simply fold when I could have extracted a bet from him by checking.

Check-raising him lets him off the hook when he has overcards and puts me in a crappy situation when he has an overpair and smooth calls my raise.

By check calling the flop I get more in while ahead and lose less when behind. By leading, re-raising all-in on the flop I'm simply getting into a coin toss situation with a player I think I can outplay. Not ideal.

On the turn I pick up more outs. Again I want him thinking I'm on the naked flush draw so I check. If he's any sort of player he'll bet again with his overs to get me off my flush draw. He did and I smooth called thinking I was ahead - with tons of outs if behind.

The river pairs the 10. I think he will check behind with an overpair if I check fearing I have a T, or will also check behind with his AK/AQ if he thinks I missed my flush draw.

If I bet he will probably call with an overpair again fearing the T. He will fold or bluff-raise his AK/AQ. He might also call thinking I missed so it has value bet potential. This will get more money when ahead, and will leave him wondering WTF I had when he folds. If he has the T he will probably raise as well to get some value, but he can't raise too much thinking I have nothing but a busted flush. This way I can call and learn something about his play and preflop raising standards. His raise smelled to me of a bluff raise so I called. From the preflop flop and turn play I judged him to have to high unpaired cards as the most likely holding, with a high pair next, and a hand with a T in it least likely. Given my read I bet out the river considering it the highest EV play against his possible range of holdings.

Screwed up logic here?

Also - I've had great success with SCs heads up and out of position against PFR's at this limit and lower. They tend to call me a "fish" as I add their stack to mine.

[Smoove]

[ QUOTE ]
Some things to consider here:

Leading out the flop lets villian off the hook when he has overs and plays weak tight (common at this level). He will simply fold when I could have extracted a bet from him by checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok...you put him on overs from day 1. Leading out is acceptable..but so is checking.

[ QUOTE ]

Check-raising him lets him off the hook when he has overcards and puts me in a crappy situation when he has an overpair and smooth calls my raise.

...I'm simply getting into a coin toss situation with a player I think I can outplay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checkraising has folding equity. You won't always be in a heads up situation because you won't always get called. You got a nearly perfect flop for calling a preflop raise with a suited connector...play aggressive.

[ QUOTE ]

On the turn I pick up more outs. Again I want him thinking I'm on the naked flush draw so I check. If he's any sort of player he'll bet again with his overs to get me off my flush draw. He did and I smooth called thinking I was ahead - with tons of outs if behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want him thinking you're on the naked flush draw? Why don't you just flip your cards over? And you still thought you were ahead here. Only very aggro villains will fire a second bullet with missed high cards here in my experience. My read here is that you're probably behind but you have outs.

[ QUOTE ]

The river pairs the 10.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is not one of your outs.

If you bet...you have to fold to a raise. You can check/call if you want to but when I get here I'm check/folding. Sounds like you won the hand though...

edit: In general I think you may be overanalyzing this. You're giving your opponent too narrow a range of hands early on in the hand (and by check/calling you further limit your ability to define) and then you open it up on the river when the board pairs the top card? You're also giving your opponent too much credit for thinking about what you might have. Most opponents say "oooh I have trip 10s/a full house/an overpair...I think I'll raise" (did I mention all you have is mid pair 6 kicker?)

[radioheadfan]

Villian had A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

How did villian play his hand?

[MVicuna]

Hi,

You said he was unknown initially, then say you can out play him. Which is it?

Your opponent isnt playing weak-tight if he folds overs to a flop bet, he's just not paying you off.

Weak tight would be smooth calling his over pair to your flop bet or folding an over pair to a CR. Or folding a hand on a scarey board that is drawing live.

CR-all-in protects your hand when he has over cards and over pairs, it doesnt let him off the hook. Your hand is only ahead if you get to see the next two cards with no more beting. Its actually behind on the turn most of the time.

If an offsuit big card peels off on the turn and he bets again your not really getting pot odds to call and he knows to check/fold if the 3rd club comes.

Of the potential hands that call an all and open raises your 51/49 over the whole. This is made up for the times they make bad calls with no pair and 0/1 club and the times they fold a better made hands because they are playing weak tight.

You are to shallow to make any play at this pot other then all in. Your right about that at least.

I've started to see in the 6max games people min-raising blocking bets because EVERYONE and their brother is using them.

Later,
MarkV.

[TrailofTears]

Like a frickin' donkey. How else would you describe it?

[mosch]

[ QUOTE ]
How did villian play his hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost as badly as you played yours.

I'd consider being a bit more gentle, but it's clear from the remarks you've made about this hand that you came to the forum to gloat, not to discuss or debate.

My thoughts about how you played the hand:

There is strong consensus that playing small suited connectors out of position in raised pots is a loser play, and I agree with it. Obviously a player will sometimes make opponent-specific strategy changes to take advantage of a specific flaw in an opponent's game, but in your initial post you specifically state that you don't know anything about your opponent yet. As such, I'd guess your pre-flop call is a loser, not a big loser, but a loser.

On the flop you decide to flat-call claiming it's a Morton's Fork situation, explaining that you can outplay the opponent, whom you have previously noted that you had no read on. How do you know you can "outplay" him? What do you even mean when you say "outplay" in this situation?

On the turn you believe you're ahead, but you've really done nothing to know where you are. You've flat-called two bets so all you know is that he raised $4 pre-flop, bet $5 on the flop and $10 on the turn. At this point I believe you've committed yourself to a calling line unless your hand improves, because you simply have no idea where your bottom pair stands.

On the river, you expect your opponent to somewhat randomly change course. For the duration of the hand you've checked to him, he's bet and you've called. Now you believe that if you check to him he'll check through, but if you bet into him, he'll raise a worst hand. Why would you think he'd check through?

This hand had good results, but from the way you've written your responses, I think you'd do better long-term if he had pocket nines or pocket queens and you lost this pot.

[warlockjd]

Check and fold the river

Def fold to rz