A9s in SB [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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QTip

03-02-2005, 09:05 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button raises, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

I wasn't crazy about making this PF call, but I did it.

Flop: (11 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

This was my main question. I was hoping to fold something like AT, trying to improve my odds if I spiked an Ace and not my flush. I thought about betting and hoping the PFRer would raise the field for my FF, but decided the pot was big, and I'd rather fold a better ace. The only thing I didn't like about this was that really the only better ace I was going to fold was AT, because AJ,AQ and AK aren't going anywhere. I didn't really consider this until after I checked for the c/r.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds, CO calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero folds, CO folds.

...and my fold to river bet % goes up...

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

easypete

03-02-2005, 09:10 AM

I'm not wild about the flop c/r... why? oh, why did you do that?

There are 2 ways you can win here... having the best ace, as you say... the c/r would be a good way to play your 3 or 2 outter /images/graemlins/frown.gif HU(very - EV).

Or... you could bet the flop... hope that the button raises it and you get many callers in between you. This way... you are trying for one of your 9 outs. much +EV.

C/R bad...

27offsooot

03-02-2005, 09:14 AM

PF: I guess this is close, but a PF call is fine.

Flop: You really need to lead this.

chief444

03-02-2005, 09:17 AM

Bet the flop. Probably 3-bet if you can. I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish with the check/raise. If there's a better ace out there it's probably in Button's hand and he isn't folding yet.

QTip

03-02-2005, 09:20 AM

You know...my mind went off to a SSHE hand where I think the flop was pretty much rags (obviously different than what I have here)...let me check because I brought the book with me today. Yeah...pages 158-159...protecting big draws...that was what I was thinking about when I went for the c/r. However, in that example we had A9s and the flop was 7 high with our 4 flush...my board was quite a bit different. However, I was still thinking "Large pot, protect my strong draw."

QTip

03-02-2005, 09:22 AM

yeah..the more I look at it the more I wish I would have lead the flop...I think this was another situation where I was trying to force a concept on a hand...i.e. misapplication...I think.

chief444

03-02-2005, 09:27 AM

You have 3 potential overcard outs here that may or may not be good with or without the check/raise. You may be reducing the chances of a chop if you catch your backdoor straight. So you're "protecting" your nut flush draw that doesn't really need protection and maybe increasing your equity by a couple percent, if that. However when you check/raise to protect the end result is more often than not more of your own money in a overall smaller pot. That's fine and good and correct in some hands but not here.

QTip

03-02-2005, 09:29 AM

What, in your opinion, is the defining differences between this hand and the one in SSHE 158?

chief444

03-02-2005, 09:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What, in your opinion, is the defining differences between this hand and the one in SSHE 158?

[/ QUOTE ]
You'll have to give me more. I'm at work and lent my book to a friend who's starting out anyway.

QTip

03-02-2005, 09:56 AM

SSHE example under heading "Protecting Draws and Buying Outs"

You have Ac9c in MP. 2 limpers, you limp, 1 more limper, button raises, BB and all limpers call (12.5 sb)

Flop: 7c4h2c

BB check, 1st limper bets, 2nd limper calls, you should raise..."though you do not mind callers, since the pot is large you prefer that your opponents fold"

"Many players do not want to loose customers..they're correct if the make their nut flush they want more opponents; however, you'll often improve to 1 or 2 pair and will win more frequently against fewer opponents."

That's the jist.

chief444

03-02-2005, 10:04 AM

OK. That one seems like a clear raise with two overcards and the nut flush draw on a fairly ragged flop. A raise has a reasonable chance of folding out the button if he has something like AJ. And it is good value. In your hand, you have one overcard on a board that's far more likely to have hit the pfr. If there is a better Ace out there it's probably in the pfr's hand and you're not making it two bets to him. So he'll have odds to call with pretty much anything you'd want him to fold. In the example from the book I would probably still open bet on the flop. But an attempt to eliminate opponents does have more merit on that board with two overcards.

QTip

03-02-2005, 10:12 AM

Okay...yet another misapplication...I'll get it straight.

ErrantNight

03-02-2005, 10:45 AM

i don't have time to read all the responses... so here's mine:

i'm not crazy about the preflop call. a read on the button would help, but his raise likely isn't light. but it's close. you're going to have a pretty big field with a hand that plays well multi-way. problem is: you could be pretty well dominated on a non diamond frop. i've been making this call a lot and trying to cut it out. in the bb i think it's pretty easy, here, i think maybe the muck. hopefully others have argued about this point.

i'm definitely against your flop raise. you should lead this flop and hope it gets raised on the end and traps the field. your equity is pretty good here, and i see your point about hoping to gut any lone aces... but literally the only ace you're afraid of is AT. any other ace YOU have dominated. for the most part, you're happy to let them in. plus, YOU are drawing, and you're likely behind for now. you'd like the extra heads on the turn to give you better odds to continue drawing.

additionally, had you led the frop, your hand would be a lil better disguised.

PokerBob

03-02-2005, 11:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button raises, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

I wasn't crazy about making this PF call, but I did it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but I don't think it's awful.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (11 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

This was my main question. I was hoping to fold something like AT, trying to improve my odds if I spiked an Ace and not my flush. I thought about betting and hoping the PFRer would raise the field for my FF, but decided the pot was big, and I'd rather fold a better ace. The only thing I didn't like about this was that really the only better ace I was going to fold was AT, because AJ,AQ and AK aren't going anywhere. I didn't really consider this until after I checked for the c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

You HAVE to bet this flop. There are lotsa draws out there, and many will call. Button will raise, and you will trap many monkies.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (9.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds, CO calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero folds, CO folds.

...and my fold to river bet % goes up...

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

EDIT: /images/graemlins/blush.gif This fold is STANDARD, not awful.

chief444

03-02-2005, 11:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This fold is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting thought. Why?

PokerBob

03-02-2005, 11:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This fold is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting thought. Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is big. Also, IMO if you call the turn, you gotta call the river.

chief444

03-02-2005, 11:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is big. Also, IMO if you call the turn, you gotta call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I'm not folding the nut flush draw on the turn. But I don't understand why that means I have to call the river. I doubt if button's bluffing very often and even when he is he still may have a better no pair.

PokerBob

03-02-2005, 11:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The pot is big. Also, IMO if you call the turn, you gotta call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I'm not folding the nut flush draw on the turn. But I don't understand why that means I have to call the river. I doubt if button's bluffing very often and even when he is he still may have a better no pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kill me. For some reason I thought an ace hit the board. Uh, NOT folding is awful. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

QTip

03-02-2005, 11:41 AM

You really had me confused there until I got to this post... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

QTip

03-02-2005, 11:42 AM

Thanks...yeah...I see that I should have led the flop now. I would have done this 100% of the time before yesterday when I reread a section in SSHE and misapplied it here.

chief444

03-02-2005, 11:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Kill me. For some reason I thought an ace hit the board. Uh, NOT folding is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]
If we killed people for these kind of things I wouldn't have made it to post #2.