Got Out-played...help

[theredpill5]

Ok, Villain told me that he bluffed me on the river about 10 minutes after this play. Could I have prevented from being out-played or could I have figured it out and made the call on the river ? Here is the hand. I hate being out-played but I hate making bad calls much more.

Hero $82
villain $55

4 handed

Hero has Q/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif in BB
Villain is in MP

Everyone limps to me
Hero raises to $2
Everyone calls


Flop: 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif pot=9
SB checks
Hero bets $6
Villain calls
Button folds
SB folds

Turn: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (this card scared me) pot=20

Hero checks
Villain bets $8
Hero calls

river: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif pot=$35
Hero bets $6
Villain raises All-in for $38

Only about the 10th hand at the table and I really hadn't seen much from villain. My thoughts were that he was a half-way decent player. Is his thinking that this play only has to work more than 50 % of the time to make money on it since he's getting even money provided that I fold. He was being awfully candid with me. He said that he was on tilt a bit after having a bad night.

Can someone help me understand the psychology here and would you have made the call on the river ? Try to be objective.

[theredpill5]

bump

[djoyce003]

what size blinds was this table....do you have any reads, etc. etc...all this is useful in responding to your post. If everyone limped to you, didn't raise nearly enough. You should increase your raise by a bb or 2 for every single limper...even at a .25c blind table you probably should have raised to at least 3, maybe more. If this table had .50 blinds, which it probably did judging from the stack sizes your raise should have been in the neighborhood of 4 or 5 at least with that many limpers. That helps somewhat to define your opponents hand.

I wouldn't worry about him telling you he bluffed you...he could easily have been messing with you. If he wanted to brag about bluffing he'd have shown you right away, not told u about it 10 mins later.

[partygirluk]

You acted scared throughout. If he is a decent player, it is hard to see him having an 8.

You invited him to take the pot away from you. IMHO the turn card is pretty good for you. The only hand you are behind is 22 (or the unlikely 88). The pot stands at £20ish, so I fire out £16 and evaluate from there.

[Sam T.]

I agree you probably need to raise more PF. AQs is a good hand, but not one you want to play with a lot of company.

Re-read the hand history from his perspective:

-You make a small raise pre-flop.

-You bet 2/3 of the pot on the flop, announcing you have a queen or an overpair.

-You check when another eight hits. What does this tell him? If I'm sitting in his seat, it says to me you missed the flop with AJ, AK or pockets below a queen. You took your stab at the pot, didn't take it down, and now you're in trouble. I'm betting any two here. (And in truth, I think villain's bet is pretty weak here - he doesn't like his hand either. Check-raise here, and he folds.)

-River falls, and you make a very small bet - under 1/5 of the pot! That's either quads making a value bet, or an incredibly weak blocking bet, looking for a cheap showdown. Kudos to him for not letting you off the hook. (And if he had the eight, is he going to try to blow you out of the hand? Hell, no. He's going to make a min-raise that you have to call.)

In any case, I think you needed to bet the turn. It's tough to see anyone calling your raise with an eight (or it would be if you'd raised a more significant amount), so the turn should not scare you (would a two have scared you?). Alternately, go with the check-raise. It will not make him happy.

My two cents,

Sam

[Wayfare]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, Villain told me that he bluffed me on the river about 10 minutes after this play. Could I have prevented from being out-played or could I have figured it out and made the call on the river ? Here is the hand. I hate being out-played but I hate making bad calls much more.

Hero $82
villain $55

4 handed

Hero has Q/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif in BB
Villain is in MP

Everyone limps to me
Hero raises to $2
Everyone calls


Flop: 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif pot=9
SB checks
Hero bets $6
Villain calls
Button folds
SB folds

Turn: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (this card scared me) pot=20

Hero checks
Villain bets $8
Hero calls

river: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif pot=$35
Hero bets $6
Villain raises All-in for $38

Only about the 10th hand at the table and I really hadn't seen much from villain. My thoughts were that he was a half-way decent player. Is his thinking that this play only has to work more than 50 % of the time to make money on it since he's getting even money provided that I fold. He was being awfully candid with me. He said that he was on tilt a bit after having a bad night.

Can someone help me understand the psychology here and would you have made the call on the river ? Try to be objective.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet the turn, bet the river in proportion to the pot.

[Tilt]

You cannot check/call that turn. You are inviting a river bluff. Why would he hold an 8 at this point? That card should not scare you. His most likely holding is a flush draw. The 8 of spades is possible but you should test his will by raising him back.

Wayfare is correct you could bet the turn here. An even more sophisticated play would be a turn c/r against a player like this. You will have him wondering if you have a set of Q's and whether a made flush will even do him any good at this point.

[theredpill5]

These players could have any two but yeah 5 handed the likely hood that someone has an 8 isn't very good. NOt only that he wouldn't bet half the pot on the turn if he had 8. Even more important, he wouldn't push all-in on the river with it. I got a little money back from him later, though.

2 hands later, I raised again with Q Q and some guy called my raise with 8 4 suited. Board was like this: 3 7 4 4 X . Any two man. These players could have any two. Lucky for me , I didn't pay him off.

[ABC7133]

You need to make larger raises PF - 4 X BB plus 1 X BB / limper. Might kill your action, but will help in preventing things like the Q-Q hand

[NiceCatch]

I'm a little confused by your hand history. Pill. It says the game was 4-handed, and everyone called your raise to $2. That's an $8 pot... hand history says $9. Reverse rake???? If so, I need some of that action!

Also, what position were you in? If you were in position, you gotta raise more. With four players on the flop, you gotta bet the pot. Hell, even follow it up on the turn. The poster who said your river bet was too low to be a blocking bet was right.

Your play in short-handed worries me... if you're not aggressive enough, and also firm enough to call a big bet every now and then, you will be eaten up. Short-handed play is about sometimes bluffing and sometimes calling big bluffs.

[cookperson]

For my 2 cents it appears that a common thread in your posts, is that often you have a good hand, start off by betting a reasonable amount;but when someone sticks with you,you lose your aggression ;putting him on a big hand that he probalby doesn't have. You then make a mini-bet or check, giving him the opening to bully you out, or at the least make you make a tough decision, that you wouldn't have to make if you were more aggressive throughout the hand

[poboy]

Why does the 8 scare you? Maybe if it was the 8s I could see slowing down. If you felt you were ahead on the flop you are certainly still ahead and should continue betting. The only logical hand villian could have containing an 8 would be 88, and people won't usually try to push you out with that. JMO

[theredpill5]

I play on a site where it is fishy as hell. Anyway, all of you are absolutely correct. I do tend to trail off on the turn and river. I have to stop that. I am making money but damn, I would have been up $100 last night instead of about $40 if I would have called that river.

Checking the turn was OK as long as I check raised him. If he didn't have an 8, he would have probably backed down. I don't find players like him too often and I think it would very worthwhile to seek out these players and label them in the notes so I know what players are likely to make moves on me.

Thanks guys. I had a big stack of $80 so I was up $30 and this is when I get a little scared and start playing scared. I think it might benefit me to leave the game and come back since I often get scared when I get a big stack because I have more to lose . Opinions ? I appreciate all the help, BTW. I feel so much more confident with a $50 buy-in than a $100 stack on a $50 buy-in.

[bingledork]

Are you sure he bluffed? I always lie when someone asks me what I had.

Maybe he had 44.

[poboy]

[ QUOTE ]


Thanks guys. I had a big stack of $80 so I was up $30 and this is when I get a little scared and start playing scared. I think it might benefit me to leave the game and come back since I often get scared when I get a big stack because I have more to lose . Opinions ? I appreciate all the help, BTW. I feel so much more confident with a $50 buy-in than a $100 stack on a $50 buy-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you would be limiting the amount of money you can make if you were to leave and come back, you always want to have enough to cover all bets just in case you catch a monster. Also an astute opponent would notice someone doing this, I make notes on that player to the effect that he doesn't like playing big pots. Personally I enjoy having a large stack, it is much easier to push people around. JMO

[Wayfare]

If you care about being up and losing your money, you are probably either underbankrolled or just need more deep stack experience.

At least you are making constructive poker posts now, that's a start.