I keep losing (annoying content)

[shakingspear]

So you've read this a million times before, but I might have a valid question. I'm relatively new to poker (playing since August) and have been trying to improve my game. I study books and these boards and evaluate my play based on this study, and then try to put into action everything I learn. Unfortunately the last two months have been bad. I feel my play has improved, but I haven't seen any results as such. And while I know I'm not supposed to be results oriented, my lack of winning is making it hard for me to differentiate between bad play, bad luck, and bad beats (the bad beats are few and far between, so the real challenge is figuring out the other two).

So my question is: What's the best way for me work on my game through this losing streak, when the "correct" plays are not holding up (and therefore not reinforcing "correct" plays)?

And, you know, I'm sorry for complaining.

[TwoShedsJackson]

If you wish to continue playing you simply need to play through a run of bad luck, suckouts etc. It took me about six months to get to a breakeven stage, and after around another six months now I am a modest winner at the micros (2BB/100 or so at .5/1 and 1/2 6 max).

If you know you are playing correctly but still losing, keep playing that way and you win in the long run, it's just that the long run can be longer than you think /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Post hands in the Micro forum that you think you played correctly but lost, and use PT to analyse your play, stats etc. (don't read too much into your stats just yet though).

[RevAgain]

Assuming you're playing Limit Hold'em - play ultra tight straightforward poker to start with. Ignore that advice that says raise on the button with 4 limpers to you when you hold 56s or whatever, your winnings at low limit hold'em come mainly from people calling you down with worse kickers or without even top pair when you've bet it all the way. You can learn the trickier stuff when you've seen a lot more hands and have a better feel for the game.

In a full ring game keep your flops seen at 20% or under and you'll find you should raise pretty much if not every time you enter a pot outside of the blinds; that's tight, that's aggressive, that's enough to beat the micro limits even making a few post-flop mistakes.

My biggest leak when I started was completing the small blind far too often. It's not that I was completing with garbage, I just didn't have the experience to play post-flop without a top quality hand.

Rev

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
you'll find you should raise pretty much if not every time you enter a pot outside of the blinds



[/ QUOTE ]

This is some of the worst advice I have ever heard. Ever.

[RevAgain]

Why do people insist on trying to make themselves look clever without offering any useful advice and end up showing themselves to be the ignorant pricks they are?

I did not say that the way to play poker is always to raise. I said that by playing ultra tight whilst learning you should automatically be raising almost every time you enter the pot. I realise it may be hard for you to follow such a complicated logical step but if you are playing ultra tight you are playing hands no worse than AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,AQ and maybe AJ/TT in LP. Ergo you should almost always be raising when you enter the pot in a low limit game.

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do people insist on trying to make themselves look clever without offering any useful advice and end up showing themselves to be the ignorant pricks they are?

I did not say that the way to play poker is always to raise. I said that by playing ultra tight whilst learning you should automatically be raising almost every time you enter the pot. I realise it may be hard for you to follow such a complicated logical step but if you are playing ultra tight you are playing hands no worse than AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,AQ and maybe AJ/TT in LP. Ergo you should almost always be raising when you enter the pot in a low limit game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that even a huge n00b could profitably limp hands like Axs andsuited connectors in a multiway pot. Also, hands like KQs, KQo, KJs, ATo, KTs, KJo, QJs, QJo(likely) QTs, TJs could be played profitably (for the large part from LP, excepting KQ and KJs). If you are only playing big pairs and AK/AQ you are missing out on a LOT of money, not to mention a chance to learn how to play hands that are not your typical "premium hands." Raising every time you enter the pot means one of 2 things:
1: you are raising when you should be limping far too often
or
2: you are missing out on all kinds of valuable opportunities.
In your case it's the latter.

[Ray Of Light]

Saying 'play ultra tight in low limit games' is too general. Instead, he should learn to assess game texture, and play accordingly.

The play ultra tight advice that you gave, is better suited for loose aggressive games (games where there are 30% or more seeing each flop and 40% or more of hands are raised preflop and on the flop)

For loose passive games, (in general these are games where 30% or more are seeing each flop, and less than 30% raising preflop), value hands have an increased value, hands such as 87s, small pocket pairs and such. By telling him not to play these hands, particularly in these types of games, is teaching him to leave a heck of a lot of money on the table.

In fact, only playing big pairs, and monster hands preflop, will increase his variance when entering 5 or more multiway pots, (as is common in low limits such as $0.5/$1 and lower).

Fact of the matter is, if he is in limit games where there are 40-50% routinely seeing each flop, his variance will ALWAYS be very swingy... however, what he needs to learn to focus on is that his long term profit will be much higher because of it.

Only playing ultra tight, without any regard to the type of game he is playing, isn't nessecerily the best strategy...

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]

I did not say that the way to play poker is always to raise. I said that by playing ultra tight whilst learning you should automatically be raising almost every time you enter the pot. I realise it may be hard for you to follow such a complicated logical step but if you are playing ultra tight you are playing hands no worse than AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,AQ and maybe AJ/TT in LP. Ergo you should almost always be raising when you enter the pot in a low limit game.

[/ QUOTE ]

While this is somewhat true, if he's really trying to improve and move up, he needs to learn how to play more marginal holdings. Only raising PF and playing the most profitable hands will never force him to make tough decisions and it makes playing robotic. You may become a decent winner at .5/1 to 2/4 nut peddling, but this isn't the best way to improve.

As for improving, post hands (even ones u think may be standard), read others' posts, re-read some of the 2+2 books and try focusing on fewer tables if you're multi-tabeling.

[jaxUp]

oh yeah, low PP, that's another proitable type of hand I missed.

[RevAgain]

Suited connectors and Axs are EXACTLY the sort of hands that a novice is going to lose money on, Axs especially.

Of course you are missing opportunities playing only the hands I suggested - I did not say it was an optimal strategy by any means but if you're a novice the cheapest way to learn the game is to play far too tight by an experienced player's standards. It is very hard to lose money playing against low limit players playing those top range hands.

If you play only those really premium hands you will show a profit and be able to learn about the game. I certainly do not advocate playing like that forever, naturally you will start to be able to pick up the sort of tells you will need when you open up your starting hand requirements, adding in the hands which you would want to limp with.

Those of us who have played tens or hundreds of thousands of hands, especially multi-tabling, forget just how much information is actually flying around the table which can be used to your advantage. Sitting there losing money is frustrating and you can't get a feel for the game just by watching, playing tight allows you to involve yourself and get a few hands under your belt without suffering financially. You can learn a lot about the game without actually playing your hand, as every half decent poker book will tell you should be paying close attention to all those hands you're not involved in.

Playing far too tight is a great way to start to learn the game in my opinion. When I made my first deposit or 50 dollars or something I ran it up to 500 doing exactly that. I then bought a couple of good books (by a certain DS) and having read them opened up my starting hand selection as suggested. I just did not have the experience to apply the information yet and lost half my winnings before going back to a much tighter strategy. Rest assured I am now raising those suited connectors on the button and my shorthanded play would be considered (perhaps correctly /images/graemlins/wink.gif) recklessly aggressive.

The other advantage of playing too tight is that if you don't want to redeposit it greatly reduces your risk of ruin whilst learning.

"Remind me why I shouldn't play 9 2 again? I could hit a 9. Or a 2"

[jaxUp]

I still disagree with you, but now respect your argument a LOT more. Maybe I'm just the type who learns by jumping right in.

[RevAgain]

[ QUOTE ]
I still disagree with you, but now respect your argument a LOT more. Maybe I'm just the type who learns by jumping right in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awww, no flame war? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Obviously I wasn't (or got very unlucky when I started playing more hands). I suspect the former.

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
Awww, no flame war?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's 9:45am and I haven't been to bed. I am in no condition for a flame war.

[DeeJ]

Post some hands you are unsure about. People here are keen to offer views on how you did. It does help, even if the ego needs to take a few bruises.

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
This is some of the worst advice I have ever heard. Ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not, and it's not close. Although I would agree that it isn't optimum, it is much better than limping too much. If you're opening, usually you should be raising. If you're playing suited connectors, suited aces or small pocket pairs with limpers ahead, you should be limping. Ofsuit brodways should generally be played raise or fold (yes there are some exceptions).

[Bluffoon]

A good place to start looking at your play are specific hands where you have lost a ton of money. Analyze these hands after the fact. Look at each decision, do the math, research the forums for similiar hands, post the hand if necessary.

Another good place is to look at what type of hands are profitable for you and what type of hands are costing you money. Pokertracker is useful for this. Again analyze indiviual hands to see if you can find your errors, research the forums, cut back on playing certain types of hands that are costing you money until you can understand better why they are costing you money.

If you do this after every session you will see a gradual improvement in your results and your understanding of the game will grow.

You will soon know when you are running bad and when you are playing bad and what to do about it.

[jaybee_70]

Hi,
Look at your play 2 months ago and compare it to your game today. The problem is not your good plays that are not holding up, but the wrong plays that you don't even realize you are making yet. Sometimes you just need experience. As you play more things will start to click. You will add a new piece to your game, and look back 2 months from now and realize that you have improved. The key is realizing the consequences of being new to the game. I have seen steady progress in my game through a year and a half, and hope that I will continue to improve my game for many years to come. Have some patience with your development.

Good Luck,
Joe

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]

My biggest leak when I started was completing the small blind far too often. It's not that I was completing with garbage, I just didn't have the experience to play post-flop without a top quality hand.

Rev

[/ QUOTE ]

This was one of my biggest mistakes too. Getting rid of this one little leak is saving me hundreds of dollars a month. I'd complete the SB with any ace, unsuited connectors, any two sooted cards (not that these plays are *always* wrong, but it is wrong to always make them). The times where I'd miss the flop with my garbage would outnumber the times I made something on the flop by a wide margin. Even more expensive was when I'd end up with a draw and chase to the river with two cards that I shouldn't have been playing in the first place.

If you find yourself completing a lot of SB's, try this trick -- keep track of how much money you invest in hands in the SB that you normally wouldn't be playing in early position (ie. don't count the hands you'd normally play in early position like AK or KK -- only count the garbage hands), and then subtract that dollar amount from your winnings on those hands. I was absolutely shocked to see how much money I was losing as SB. It was basically accounting for almost all of my losses as the rest of my game was fairly strong.

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,
Look at your play 2 months ago and compare it to your game today. The problem is not your good plays that are not holding up, but the wrong plays that you don't even realize you are making yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Things for the OP to look for:
1) Are you getting the correct pot odds or implied odds for every single call you make? Do you know what the pot odds are for every situation?
2) When you play a hand, do you think about position before deciding what to do? Or do you just call the same hands no matter your position?
3) Do you cold-call more often than re-raise?
4) Do you cold-call raises on the button with mediocre holdings?
5) Do you frequently complete the SB with marginal to poor hands?
6) Do you value-bet on the river when you have a made hand?
7) When it is checked around to you pre-flop in late position, do you more often raise or do you call -- allowing the BB to see the flop "for free"?

I'm sure there are a few hundred others...but these were my biggest leaks starting out. The SB one was the worst, though...it lasted the longest, and it was most insiduous as I didn't realize how much I was losing every 10th hand thanks to the SB.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do people insist on trying to make themselves look clever without offering any useful advice and end up showing themselves to be the ignorant pricks they are?

I did not say that the way to play poker is always to raise. I said that by playing ultra tight whilst learning you should automatically be raising almost every time you enter the pot. I realise it may be hard for you to follow such a complicated logical step but if you are playing ultra tight you are playing hands no worse than AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,AQ and maybe AJ/TT in LP. Ergo you should almost always be raising when you enter the pot in a low limit game.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are people who really play this tight? Holy [censored]. That is absolutely dreadful.
-James

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]

There are people who really play this tight? Holy [censored]. That is absolutely dreadful.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

There are plenty. I imagine some of the multi-tablers who are playing 8+ tables at once play much like this out of necessity. However, in generaly, the ones who play too loose outnumber the ones who play too tight by a factor of 10.