View Full Version : Utterly confused with KK
Emmitt2222
03-02-2005, 04:02 AM
This is one of the most confusing hands I have played in awhile because the bets kept coming from different places, what the heck is happening? Please tell me all the ways in which I butchered this. BB, UTG and MP1 are all pretty loose with UTG and MP1 being particularly so. BB is the most agressive around 3.5, UTG is around 2 and MP1 is just a fish
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.
Flop: (12.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.
I felt this was similar to an example in SSHE where you have a pair of Q's and an ace falls. I was raising to protect my hand in a pretty large pot. UTG was pretty loose and agressive so I wasnt necesarrily going to give him credit for the ace.
Turn: (10.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.
While this card appeared scary at first, it actually is probably better because it slightly lessens the chance that someone has an ace. BB is even more agressive postflop than UTG and I don't think he would slowplay the ace on the flop, everyone else just calls so I call because its a pretty good pot and my hand could still be best. I thought he may have had a flushdraw or something but the other two called. Anyone find a raise or a fold?
River: (14.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.
Final Pot: 17.25 BB
So a 9 falls and both of the first people check so I'm almost positive they dont have the ace, but MP1 is pretty passive and now he bets. I'm so confused but the pot is big and I think I should call down with the other two loose callers behind me. The only thing that MP1 could have is some random two pair maybe and he doesnt realize the aces counterfit him because there are no real draws. I almost raised but didn't, anyone see a raise or a fold here?
I really am just lost on this whole hand /images/graemlins/confused.gif
eric5148
03-02-2005, 04:12 AM
Yeah, this hand makes you wanna stab your eyeballs with a fork.
I think it's ok, given the reads.
kev0ut
03-02-2005, 11:44 AM
I would fold the flop with an ace out there against 5 opponents. I just don't see any chance of taking this down unless you pull a K
chief444
03-02-2005, 11:51 AM
I've been letting hands like these go more often early on. It's an absolutely drawless, A-high board with 5 opponents. You're bet into on the flop and there's a call as well as a couple left to act after you.
yeah, pretty yucky, I think I am folding the turn here because BB has cold called the A high flop and bet into 3 other players. Having said that he's aggro so I may have played it the same. On the river I'm not liking the MP1 bet either, he may have 99 or a counterfeited T9.
Since this kind of hand happens so infrequently I think you have to assume you are good 10% of the time. So whilst I may have folded the turn, to an aggro you describe I may play it the same.
Good post. Re-sluts?
Emmitt2222
03-02-2005, 12:48 PM
Although the example is a bit different because it is A high and opponents may be more apt to hang onto any A and in this hand there is a caller inbetween, I still believe it fits pretty well into the example on page 280, #15 in SSHE where you have a pair of queens and a K falls. Ed says that he may slightly consider folding without the backdoor flush, but in this senario the pot is even slightly bigger and I have good position. He would suggest folding especially against a straightfoward opponent but this is not one. What it says in the book:
"Raise, it is a little unatural to bet a king [in this case an A] into a from the big blind [UTG] into four players, including a preflop raiser. Most players would check: Passive players might check and call for fear you have ace-king, and aggressive players might check, planning to check-raise."
I thought if there was ever a time for that play it was here, aside from missing the backdoor flush, this is a very very similar situation.
chief444
03-02-2005, 12:53 PM
There's a big difference between QQ on a K-high board and KK on an A-high, drawless board. I'd be much more inclined in general to continue on with the QQ.
pokerstudAA
03-02-2005, 01:10 PM
I dont hate the raise on the flop with fewer callers (1 or 2). Heads up it is a wonderful move. I have had people lead the flop and fold to a flop raise in this situation many times - you clearly are representing the ace. Without an ace the other player cannot call. You might get some weak-tight players to fold an ace weak kicker here also.
In this hand: You raised preflop representing the big hand. I think this raise is questionable with this many players involved in the hand. An ace came on the flop - you raised and still got bet into with 3 callers on the turn. The ace on the turn makes it less likely that someone else has an ace. The BB could be leading with 44 or TT here and just hoping your AK with trips comes back with a raise. He could also be leading an Ax hand.
One reason I dont like this play here - If you raise the flop and it is checked to you on the turn - do you plan to check behind or bet?
However, I think at this point in the hand your KK is a 2-outer and there are only 10 BB in the pot. Time to give it up. Fold the turn.
Emmitt2222
03-02-2005, 01:38 PM
First of all, heads up this is the perfect scenario for way ahead/way behind so I wouldn't raise the flop and I would let him bluff his money away if he wants, bet if checked to.
Second, you say you don't like the raise with that many players involved but that is why the raise is there, to limit the already large field and give me a better chance of winning the hand, there was only "1 or 2" callers in front of me.
Finally, here is the main problem I have with folding this turn or this hand in general; when, in this entire hand does it look like someone has a big hand [pretty much the only thing you could have on this board that beats me]? BB betting into the field looks so much like a flush draw or a complete and utter bluff because he knows that card is scary. I don't see a LAG ever playing a hand like 44 or 1010 here so intelligently. Maybe if that were a smarter player I may give him credit, but he coldcalled the flop, most would almost certainly check/raise and I think he would probably check/raise the turn as well when he picks up a full house. I just don't buy in this whole hand that anyone has a killer hand, its all just so wierd.
If it is checked to me on the turn I bet, folding to a check/raise, check it through on the river most likely if I am still in it.
Hellmouth
03-02-2005, 01:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Although the example is a bit different because it is A high and opponents may be more apt to hang onto any A and in this hand there is a caller inbetween, I still believe it fits pretty well into the example on page 280, #15 in SSHE where you have a pair of queens and a K falls. Ed says that he may slightly consider folding without the backdoor flush, but in this senario the pot is even slightly bigger and I have good position. He would suggest folding especially against a straightfoward opponent but this is not one. What it says in the book:
"Raise, it is a little unatural to bet a king [in this case an A] into a from the big blind [UTG] into four players, including a preflop raiser. Most players would check: Passive players might check and call for fear you have ace-king, and aggressive players might check, planning to check-raise."
I thought if there was ever a time for that play it was here, aside from missing the backdoor flush, this is a very very similar situation.
[/ QUOTE ]
The difference is that most people will play Axo and many less play Kxo. Because so many people will play "any Ace will do" you are much more likely to be beat here.
However after deciding to continue I think your play was ok. I might have also raised where you suggested. Probably a big looser though. Im assuming the results were bad?
Greg
MyssGuy
03-02-2005, 01:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The difference is that most people will play Axo and many less play Kxo. Because so many people will play "any Ace will do" you are much more likely to be beat here.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Given this, the number of people in the hand and no backdoor draws, I'd let it go on the turn.
buhler26
03-02-2005, 02:13 PM
Surely, you aren't suggesting limping behind two lmpers with KK? There doesn't seem to be anything questionable there in my opinion.
Three limpers, sorry. Still valid.
pokerstudAA
03-02-2005, 02:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Surely, you aren't suggesting limping behind two lmpers with KK? There doesn't seem to be anything questionable there in my opinion.
[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think anyone suggested that was an option.
[ QUOTE ]
Second, you say you don't like the raise with that many players involved but that is why the raise is there, to limit the already large field and give me a better chance of winning the hand, there was only "1 or 2" callers in front of me.
[/ QUOTE ]
As for raising the flop - regardless of the number of players in the hand - It seems unlikely that the flop raise here will drive anyone away or limit the field. The only player a flop raise might drive out at this point is the BB - still 2 others UTG and MP1 involved in the hand who have already committed one SB each so far on the flop and both will call your raise - me thinks you are building the pot up for someone else here.
Fat Nicky
03-02-2005, 02:18 PM
call me weak/tight, but i fold the flop. in hands like this when it's multiway, i too often find myself spewing chips only to show down a 2nd or 3rd best hand.
chief444
03-02-2005, 02:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
call me weak/tight, but i fold the flop. in hands like this when it's multiway, i too often find myself spewing chips only to show down a 2nd or 3rd best hand.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. I agree. It seems we're outnumbered but I'm really not sure why everyone is so intent on seeing the turn or somehow feels obligated to raise the flop.
rmarotti
03-02-2005, 02:29 PM
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Sarge85
03-02-2005, 02:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (12.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.
I felt this was similar to an example in SSHE where you have a pair of Q's and an ace falls. I was raising to protect my hand in a pretty large pot. UTG was pretty loose and agressive so I wasnt necesarrily going to give him credit for the ace.
[/ QUOTE ]
Emmitt -
You indicate you are raising to protect your hand.
From what I ask...?
An Ace has already fallen,
and the only "real" draw out there is QJ -- but they are drawing to kings. Given that you have two already in your hand - raising here isn't going to get you much in the way of protection - let them draw to a two outer.
No one is betting a flush draw, or an open end straight draw. - I drop it on the flop - yes they are cowboys, yes you probably had the best hand going in, and yes you are probably beat.
On the turn - you really need to let this hand go. You've raised PF, raised the Flop and been bet into on the turn. Not only that - he's betting into 4 people -- all of which called.
Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Man...can't blame you for being confused...this hand is horribly tough for me.
[ QUOTE ]
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL
BBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
The flop raise though, you like that?
Sarge85
03-02-2005, 02:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Man...can't blame you for being confused...this hand is horribly tough for me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually look at all the information you have to make this less tough...
Hero Raises in late position after limpers - BB calls, as well as limpers.
Flop - UTG bets into the PF Raiser. - PF Raiser raises again.
Turn - BB bets into UTG AND the PF/Flop Raiser
River - MP1 bets into all of them....
None really fear an Ace - do you think they fear KK?
Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Fat Nicky
03-02-2005, 02:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
to limit the already large field and give me a better chance of winning the hand, there was only "1 or 2" callers in front of me.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a weak argument for raising the flop.
[ QUOTE ]
None really fear an Ace - do you think they fear KK?
[/ QUOTE ]
I was a little concerned with BB leading the turn, but not that much given the description.
The river bet was the one that worried me.
Are you folding the flop like the chief?
Meaning...LAP never seem to fear much of anything.
Fat Nicky
03-02-2005, 02:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I was a little concerned with BB leading the turn, but not that much given the description.
The river bet was the one that worried me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why were you more concerned with the river bet, the river certainly wasn't a scare card.
[ QUOTE ]
but MP1 is pretty passive and now he bets
[/ QUOTE ]
Fat Nicky
03-02-2005, 02:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but MP1 is pretty passive and now he bets
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
i gotcha, forgot about the action in the hand...
The other thing that scared me there was that if I wanted to call for the showdown, I wasn't sure if one of those LAGs were going for the c/r.
Sarge85
03-02-2005, 03:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
None really fear an Ace - do you think they fear KK?
[/ QUOTE ]
I was a little concerned with BB leading the turn, but not that much given the description.
The river bet was the one that worried me.
Are you folding the flop like the chief?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.
Raising the flop probably makes fold the turn even easier though. --
Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
LinusKS
03-02-2005, 04:12 PM
If I've done my math right (always a big if) the odds that someone is dealt an ace at a full table are about 80%.
Given the number of players to the flop, the kind of players, and the early bet, I'd guess the odds in this case are quite a bit worse than that.
It looks like raising is just throwing away chips to me, and folding is probably best. You might convince me calling is ok, based on implied odds if you hit your two-outer, + the small chance the flop-bettor checks the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
call me weak/tight, but i fold the flop. in hands like this when it's multiway, i too often find myself spewing chips only to show down a 2nd or 3rd best hand.
[/ QUOTE ]
Emmitt2222
03-02-2005, 05:15 PM
I really do see some argument for the flop fold, but based on my reads I have no clue why anyone would fold the turn. BB is a LAG and his actions make no sense to me on the turn other than saying bluff. The UTG who maybe had the ace now only calls which makes no sense either. If I get as far as the turn on this hand I'm going to showdown based on read. I may be being results oriented but I don't think I played it particularly bad and Sarge, I am not just protecting against flush draws [because you can't, I would only help them] and straight draws, I am protecting against people who may just have a lower pair and could still suck out on me on the turn or river with trips or two pair; granted they are drawing thin but I want to increase my chance to win this big pot, thats the way I'm looking at this, but I could be wrong.
Anyway here are the results. BB, if you didnt notice, folded so he was on a complete bluff or he missed his flush.
UTG has Td Js (two pair, aces and tens).
MP1 has Jh Th (two pair, aces and tens).
Hero has Kh Kc (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 17.25 BB.
Very nice. But I fold on the turn.
Sarge85
03-02-2005, 08:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I may be being results oriented but I don't think I played it particularly bad
[/ QUOTE ]
It's tough not to be when you win, but in the long run - your going to be shown that case Ace.
At any rate - nice hand
Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Emmitt2222
03-02-2005, 11:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It's tough not to be when you win, but in the long run - your going to be shown that case Ace.
At any rate - nice hand
[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? If I played it bad how is it a nice hand? Do you think I was OK because of my reads or do you think I should fold this flop pretty much everytime, honestly I want to know. I'd rather not be told I did well when I'm really losing money in the long run.
krishanleong
03-03-2005, 12:22 AM
Fold the flop is 70/30. I'd raise the 30 with the right reads and table image.
Fold the turn is 60/40. The Ace makes it less likely for someone to have an ace. It's a nice semibluff card for someone since it makes a flush draw possible.
I never fold the river. I'd put the river bettor on an ace less than 30% of the time. Even if they are passive.
Krishan
whodaman
03-03-2005, 12:45 AM
i would fold the flop... 2/4 party every ace is played pretty much... chances are really good with a bet and a call in front of you someone has an ace
MattC
03-03-2005, 01:31 AM
if utg didnt bet, id bet and if i were called be done with the hand. since utg bet, id fold, hes betting into a large crowd, one of them being the aggressor.
people just love to play aces; however, if you took the same situation and made it a king as top card on the board and you have qq im more likely to play since kings get played way less often.
Sarge85
03-03-2005, 01:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's tough not to be when you win, but in the long run - your going to be shown that case Ace.
At any rate - nice hand
[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? If I played it bad how is it a nice hand? Do you think I was OK because of my reads or do you think I should fold this flop pretty much everytime, honestly I want to know. I'd rather not be told I did well when I'm really losing money in the long run.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think in the long run you'll be folding these hands.
However, if you made a read based on the action of their past behavior, you made the right play - ergo nice hand - or maybe nice read would be more accurate.
Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
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