KK not always push anymore eh? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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amoeba

03-01-2005, 11:48 PM

KK not always push preflop at party now, eh?

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 11:51 PM

I guess. But keep in mind that the opposition hasn't changed because the blinds did.

They'll still push with KQ, AQ, AJs, KJs, 88-JJ ... 45s !

amoeba

03-01-2005, 11:53 PM

do they?

I haven't seen it yet with a full stack.

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 11:56 PM

Either preflop, or after the flop with a measly pair or gutshot, I see it 8-10 times a week.

But it's a valid point to say that KK might not be auto-push preflop now.

Georgia Peach

03-02-2005, 12:56 AM

For the less than experienced NL players, why isn't it a push anymore?

amoeba

03-02-2005, 12:57 AM

stacks are deeper, people are supposedly less likely to call you with QQ JJ, etc..

ihardlyknowher

03-02-2005, 01:09 AM

I think we may be giving the PP crowd too much credit. If QQ was worth $25 yesterday, it is worth $25 today. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wayfare

03-02-2005, 01:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
KK not always push preflop at party now, eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still only afraid of one hand bud. Aren't you the guy who doesn't complete KQs in the SB?

MasterShakes

03-02-2005, 01:21 AM

Laying down KK is going to be heavily player dependent. You're going to need to know your player well and know that your player isn't willing to semi-routinely get all-in with QQ or AK also. Both finding this player and knowing a player this well will be rare in these games up to 100 I'm sure.

BradleyT

03-02-2005, 01:22 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 ($23.3)
CO ($26.6)
Button ($19.35)
SB ($17.25)
BB ($23.25)
UTG ($82.65)
UTG+1 ($10.36)
UTG+2 ($15.5)
Hero ($25.6)
MP2 ($75.89)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero calls $2, MP2 raises to $7, 5 folds, UTG calls $80.65 (All-In), Hero folds, MP2 calls $68.89 (All-In).

Flop: ($160.89) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($160.89) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($160.89) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $160.89

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ad As (two pair, aces and queens).
MP2 has Jc Ac (one pair, queens).
Outcome: UTG wins $160.54.

sourbeaver

03-02-2005, 10:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
KK not always push preflop at party now, eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still only afraid of one hand bud. Aren't you the guy who doesn't complete KQs in the SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be me /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

BTW, I started completing KQs at 6-max when the table has a low PFR. It's not that bad, but I've seen better /images/graemlins/wink.gif

schwza

03-02-2005, 11:59 AM

i would still do it with 100x stacks, just like i had been with 50x buy-ins after a double up.

my second biggest one-hand loss was getting all-in pre-flop with KK against AA for 700 in NL200 (175x). and don't even ask about the biggest loss /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Tilt

03-02-2005, 01:40 PM

Ive been playing 100BB stacks at pokerroom for a long time. The move of honor at 25NL there is just as successful as it ever was at Party 25. It almost never works at 50NL, though, in my experience.

theblitz

03-02-2005, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and don't even ask about the biggest loss /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What was the biggest?

Misery shared is ..... a laugh for everyone else.

schwza

03-02-2005, 02:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and don't even ask about the biggest loss /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What was the biggest?

Misery shared is ..... a laugh for everyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]

i limp A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif utg+1, call small raise from aggro SB.

flop: 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJx i call a 3/4 pot bet.

turn: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif i call a 1/4 pot bet

river: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif i call a 3x pot push, am shown (no surprise) quad 9's.

i drop close to 800 on the hand and vow never to sit deep again unless i know the other deep stacks are bad as i apparenlty have no idea how to play a river with chips in front of me.

PoBoy321

03-02-2005, 02:57 PM

Just remember, the stacks got deeper, the players didn't get better.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($15)
UTG ($19.75)
UTG+1 ($24.6)
MP1 ($22.75)
MP2 ($29.55)
CO ($21.4)
Button ($10.65)
Hero ($27.9)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.1.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $3, 4 folds, Hero (poster) raises to $6.9, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $4.

Flop: ($14.25) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)

Turn: ($14.25) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)

River: ($14.25) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: $14.25

EDIT: Sorry, converter screwed up. I pushed pre-flop, he called and showed TT.

Wakko

03-02-2005, 02:58 PM

It just takes longer to move the slider all the way to the right now.

Seriously, I still have guys calling all in preflop with 99 and 55 at nl100; why wouldn't I still want to get all in with KK preflop? It's what happens when they flatcall that I'm more worried about.

theblitz

03-02-2005, 03:29 PM

BIG BIG ouchie.

Tilt

03-02-2005, 03:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i drop close to 800 on the hand and vow never to sit deep again unless i know the other deep stacks are bad as i apparenlty have no idea how to play a river with chips in front of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Put another way, sitting deep is pretty much like playing up a level. If you wont play a level with a 4X starting stack over your current level then don't keep playing at 4X your stack when others match you chip for chip.

theblitz

03-02-2005, 04:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Put another way, sitting deep is pretty much like playing up a level. If you wont play a level with a 4X starting stack over your current level then don't keep playing at 4X your stack when others match you chip for chip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not 100% true. Remember, even though you have built up a nice stack the blinds and bet sizes remain the same.
Makes a big differance to the play.

schwza

03-02-2005, 04:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i drop close to 800 on the hand and vow never to sit deep again unless i know the other deep stacks are bad as i apparenlty have no idea how to play a river with chips in front of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Put another way, sitting deep is pretty much like playing up a level. If you wont play a level with a 4X starting stack over your current level then don't keep playing at 4X your stack when others match you chip for chip.

[/ QUOTE ]

the stakes were not the problem. i would rather play 8-16 with 800 in front than 2-4 with 800 in front against equal competition (although both would make me a little nervous). in my familiar 50x game, you never have to face a big overbet on the river unless there's been very little action.

Yosemite Mark

03-02-2005, 05:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]

BTW, I started completing KQs at 6-max when the table has a low PFR. It's not that bad, but I've seen better /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

This is off topic, but why complete the SB w/KQs when the table has a low PFR, but not a high one? If I'm at a high PFR table, and it's limped all around, I can be almost certian I'm not dominated by AK or AQ, correct?

sourbeaver

03-02-2005, 07:17 PM

n/m

Smoove

03-03-2005, 12:54 AM

*this post has no content*
If you're first to act and wait to push the flop regardless then you get that party poker magic working for you. It's called mixing up your play.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($242.45)
BB ($216.05)
UTG ($0)
MP ($107.7)
CO ($70.15)
Button ($71.6)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.5.
MP calls $1, CO raises to $4, 1 fold, Hero (poster) raises to $10.5, 1 fold, MP calls $10, CO raises to $25, Hero calls $14, MP folds.

Flop: ($62) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $46, CO calls $45.15 (All-In).

Turn: ($153.15) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($153.15) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $153.15

Results:
Hero has Kd Kc (straight, king high).
UTG doesn't show.
CO has Ah Ad (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins $153.14.

amoeba

03-03-2005, 01:07 AM

its not about just getting beat by that one hand, its how likely worse hands are going to call you when stacks are 100xBB deep.

amoeba

03-03-2005, 01:10 AM

on a side note, the worst is when you raise with KK, get reraised, you call that reraise and the flop comes Q high.

That is the worst feeling.

TheWorstPlayer

03-03-2005, 01:11 AM

Worst flop push ever? Nice. I also like pushing with KK on a QJx flop...