Sorry for wasting your time people [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

AngryCola

03-01-2005, 09:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My friend says Aks its better.

[/ QUOTE ]

20,547,648 games 0.160 secs 128,422,800 games/sec

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 34.1064 % [ 00.34 00.00 ] { AKs }
Hand 2: 65.8936 % [ 00.65 00.00 ] { KK }

goldseraph

03-01-2005, 09:50 PM

only 1 of those is a hand, I'll take the hand

Tevyee

03-01-2005, 09:54 PM

KK wins 2/3 of the time against AKs. Your friend is unfortunately a moron. (Well fortunate for your poker game, but otherwise.)

M2d

03-01-2005, 09:57 PM

isn't AKo better since it can make two flushes?

valenzuela

03-01-2005, 10:00 PM

Anyway QQ vs AKs its acceptable, i prefer QQ.

AngryCola

03-01-2005, 10:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway QQ vs AKs its acceptable, i prefer QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but here are the numbers anyway.

41,095,296 games 0.110 secs 373,593,600 games/sec

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 53.9515 % [ 00.54 00.00 ] { QQ }
Hand 2: 46.0485 % [ 00.46 00.00 ] { AKs }

TStoneMBD

03-01-2005, 10:07 PM

i dont think the question is geared towards heads up play, with KK being vs AK allin on a coin flip. you are giving all of these preflop equity percentages which arent really necessary. In a deep stack tournament, I would probably take JTs over AKo in alot of situations, yet AKo clearly has more preflop equity.

regardless, its quite obvious that KK is a much better hand than AKs, and even better than AKo as both can make 2 flushes which is better than 1. :P

AngryCola

03-01-2005, 10:16 PM

I understood the context of his question.

[ QUOTE ]
regardless, its quite obvious that KK is a much better hand than AKs

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

jakethebake

03-01-2005, 11:02 PM

if i remember right the point wasn't anything to do with AK vs. KK heads up. It was that you'll win a little or lose a lot w/ AK but you'll gernerally win bigger hands when you win with AK. Not syaing it's right, just that's the arguement.

lorinda

03-01-2005, 11:06 PM

What's the flop?

Lori

Daliman

03-01-2005, 11:18 PM

Your frend is likely working off of Doyle's contention that AKs will usually get you in less trouble than KK, and often misunderstood statement in S/S. Don't get him worng, though, Doyle would prefer to have the KK.

GFtheMamba

03-01-2005, 11:31 PM

Well, obviously the BETTER hand is KK, bar none. However, in most situations, I would prefer to have AKs because of the flush possibilities and the fact that I seem to not be able to let go of KK in situations where I should, but thats just me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

TransientR

03-02-2005, 12:04 AM

I think AK gets more players in trouble than any other hand (including me)...

A great drawing hand, and just that, a drawing hand.

Frank

sammysusar

03-02-2005, 12:16 AM

the 9 who voted AKs are probably right. 90 of poker players are long term losers.

johnnybeef

03-02-2005, 01:11 AM

the reason doyle says this is because in no limit holdem, kk tends to either win small pots, or lose really big ones. your friend is, however, incorrect as angry clearly demonstrates

MrMon

03-02-2005, 05:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
the reason doyle says this is because in no limit holdem, kk tends to either win small pots, or lose really big ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

I swear from my own experience, Doyle is right, but my PokerTracker stats don't bear him or my memory out. It does SEEM like KK is always getting cracked by Ax, which is why I call the "Ace Magnets", but my stats are as follows:

41,724 NL STT hands, All Blinds
AKs 137 times, 60.58% win, 0.88 BB/hand
KK 199 times, 71.86% win, 2.38 BB/hand

Of course, it could just be me, because
AKo 357 times, 64.71% win, 1.54 BB/hand

Anyone else want to post theirs?

Mad Genius1

03-02-2005, 05:35 AM

I didn't bother to read other responses but here is my take on the question.

Percentage wise, obviously KK is better than AKs. There is no need for a discussion. However, it could be argued that AKs plays better postflop depending on the texture of the table, the number of players taking the flop, etc. I'm not saying that it necessarily does, but an argument could be made. I myself prefer to have KK but there are certain people who have much better stats with AKs because they can't release an overpair no matter what.

If I asked a similar type of question,

"What hand is better, 76s or Q7o?"

Well, all the know-it-alls will pull out the poker calculator odds but 76s is undoubtedly a better playable hand in most situations than Q7o is.

AngryCola

03-02-2005, 07:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If I asked a similar type of question,

"What hand is better, 76s or Q7o?"

Well, all the know-it-alls will pull out the poker calculator odds but 76s is undoubtedly a better playable hand in most situations than Q7o is.

[/ QUOTE ]

66,908,986 games 887.246 secs 75,411 games/sec

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 17.7789 % [ 00.16 00.02 ] { Q7o }
Hand 2: 18.5520 % [ 00.17 00.01 ] { 76s }
Hand 3: 21.2278 % [ 00.20 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 21.2248 % [ 00.20 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 21.2165 % [ 00.20 00.01 ] { random }

Sorry, I just had to do it to be spiteful! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif
But obviously Q7o is a big favorite vs. 67s heads up.
If you had chosen a less dominated hand it would be a bit different, though.

PS-
AKs isn't better than KK.

Spladle Master

03-02-2005, 07:20 AM

Ironically, Q7o called me when I tried the Move of Honor with kings today (yes, even with the new 100xBB stacks). Flopped a seven. Turned a queen.

No point, really, you can call the bad beat police when you find the time.

ttleistdci

03-02-2005, 11:20 AM

does this even need to be debated?

The_Bends

03-02-2005, 12:08 PM

The point is, at a high level who are you really going to nail with KK? Someone with AK when the flop comes AKx maybe, someone with QQ when the board comes undercards perhaps. However with AKs you have two different draws to the nuts and in high level NLHE its all about extracting the maximum from your nut hands. In this case fluhses and straights over strong sets.

Therefore you have to be very lucky to get in a situation where you can stack someone holding KK but slightly less lucky to stack someone when you hold AKs. In addition its very diffiuclt to get tied on with AKs. No good players marry TPTK with heavy betting going on, were-as its diffiuclt to know where you are when you hold an overpair.

However I would prefer to be dealt KK so there you go .

valenzuela

03-02-2005, 12:19 PM

KK can flop a set as well, how about punishing an underset, this subject hasnt been discussed yet.

ttleistdci

03-02-2005, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]

However I would prefer to be dealt KK so there you go .

[/ QUOTE ]

Case closed.
You made a good point that AKs is an excellent drawing hand, but would you rather be on a draw or, 2/3 times, have top pair in your hand?

Gimme KK any day.

TStoneMBD

03-02-2005, 02:01 PM

this is the stupidest thread on this forum, and i cannot believe that a select few people have actually voted for AKs. youre wrong. look at any EV stats from any online graph or anybodys PT data and you will see that KK is a significant long term money winner in comparison to AKs. its not even close. if you dont like money, choose AKs.

BarronVangorToth

03-02-2005, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this is the stupidest thread on this forum,

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally I'd say that's impossible as there are MANY idiotic threads ... but, you're right, this may be the absolute zenith (or nadir).

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

valenzuela

03-02-2005, 04:28 PM

Ok I think youre being unfair to me at least I didnt ask about the sexuality of a pro.

jackdaniels

03-02-2005, 04:35 PM

Thanks for putting this in perspective. While this question is pretty basic to many people reading and posting on 2+2, it is definelty a legitimate poker question. There is no difference between this question and "How many outs do I have if I flopped a 4 flush with no pair on board?" - Both questions are begginer questions and if anyone feels like they don't want to answer them - don't. This is definelty a better post than the debate over some pro's sexuality...

valenzuela

03-02-2005, 04:47 PM

Does anyone have stats for AKs vs KK when you open the betting on a high stakes no-limit table??( according to my friend AKs beats KK when u open the betting on high stakes no-limit tables)

jackdaniels

03-02-2005, 04:59 PM

Although I said this was a legitimate post (compared to the sexuality one), you have to realize you got your answer already - and quit while you are ahead. Some of the most respected (albeit short tempered) posters here replied without hesitation that KK is far superior to AKs.

You now have the following options:

1. Teach your friend what you now know.
2. Prop bet him - giving him AKs and yourself KK - play 1000 hands hot/cold for whatever stakes you feel comfortable at (and walk away a winner!)
3. Tell him he is right and direct him to the nearest NL high stakes table (which I don't usually play, but let me know if you choose this option and I will be happy to make an exception)

twomarks

03-02-2005, 05:00 PM

The question is not what SS2 is trying to get across. The point was that with AA or KK, you'll tend toward winning small pots and losing big ones because you can't get away from the Bullets or Cowboys. With AK it's easy to get away from it when it fails to flop anything and you can break someone when an Ace or King flops and your opponent pairs, but has a worse kicker.

Of course you'll take KK against AK everytime but that's not what the point of the statment was.

twomarks

AngryCola

03-02-2005, 05:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(albeit short tempered)

[/ QUOTE ]

No way!

That never happens.

Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1839817&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

jackdaniels

03-02-2005, 05:18 PM

lol! - Vicious! You guys are just vicious I tell ya!

I was almost worried we would become a respectable bunch after reading Irieguy's post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=1822484 &Forum=All_Forums&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Mai n=1822484&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=15228&dat erange=1&newerval=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertyp e=&bodyprev=#Post1822484) - now I know there is simply no chance of that happening!

Kaz The Original

03-02-2005, 05:41 PM

Have you read the book? Doyle says he PREFERS TO HAVE AKs.

Kaz The Original

03-02-2005, 05:45 PM

Yes, KK does better hot and cold vs AKs, but we are not talking about hot or cold here, we are talking about playing poker.

Do you prefer to flop quads with a pocket pair or a set? I prefer the set.

In some games, yes, I prefer to have KK, especially the ones where people call with any pair. But AKs destroys the any acer's, where as KK just chips away from them.

Would you prefer to have a flush or a straight?

The answer, is of course, it depends.

AngryCola

03-02-2005, 05:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But AKs destroys the any acer's, where as KK just chips away from them

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

Kaz The Original

03-02-2005, 06:18 PM

AK against A5 will make alot of money when you both hit an ace.

KK vs A5 will make alot of money by raising preflop, and the flop coming without an ace, or occasionally lose a bit and get away cheap when the flop comes with an ace. KK will chip away at them, AK will take them for huge amounts, occasionally.

Easy E

03-02-2005, 06:29 PM

Anyone who picked AK is sentenced to Phil Hellmuth Poker Training Camp

AngryCola

03-02-2005, 06:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]

AK against A5 will make alot of money when you both hit an ace.

KK vs A5 will make alot of money by raising preflop, and the flop coming without an ace, or occasionally lose a bit and get away cheap when the flop comes with an ace. KK will chip away at them, AK will take them for huge amounts, occasionally.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, I see what you are saying now.

I was being stupid. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif
(shocking)

Kaz The Original

03-02-2005, 07:07 PM

I'll repent! I won't raise any marginal hands UTG for the next five years... I'll repent! Just anything but that... anything... *sobs*

valenzuela

03-02-2005, 07:47 PM

Well...I do think KK is better but a decent case can be made for AKs thats why I asked for a pro opinion( not a guy who makes a living playing $55 sngs, a true pro)Maybe Fossilman can give his opinion.

crookedhat99

03-02-2005, 11:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In a deep stack tournament, I would probably take JTs over AKo in alot of situations, yet AKo clearly has more preflop equity.

[/ QUOTE ]
uh....JT over AK?? I don't understand people like you.

AngryCola

03-03-2005, 06:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well...I do think KK is better but a decent case can be made for AKs thats why I asked for a pro opinion( not a guy who makes a living playing $55 sngs, a true pro)Maybe Fossilman can give his opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

So you don't believe any of us because we haven't been on TV? I'm guessing that's your definition of a "true pro".

You really WERE wasting our time.
If you didn't want our opinions, why did you ask?
Fossilman has his own nice website, and you could PM him also. That way, you could just waste his time as opposed to all of our time. By the way, the big "pros" didn't bother with this thread because the answer is incredibly obvious.

I get it...
It's not a friend of yours, it's you.

I don't get people like you. You ask for answers, and you get them. But then it's not good enough for you because you think you're right. All you were really looking for was a confirmation of your own beliefs, not the truth. Well, I'm sorry to tell you, your beliefs are wrong.
Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1840560&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)

valenzuela

03-03-2005, 02:05 PM

You guys said KK is better than AKs ," I rather have KK in my hand rather than AKs". Now Im asking a high stakes pro for his opinion, every opinion is valuble, Im not telling you ur opinion isnt valuable because u dont appear on TV..you totally got me wrong.( like i wouldnt like to beat the $55 sngs). And btw i do think KK is better.( if two ppl have this discussion most likely the person that has read super system will say that AKs is better) Since we can only read words...people might get the things the wrong way. Maybe you arent really pissed with me.

valenzuela

03-03-2005, 02:20 PM

Ok you didnt get my post wrong thats actually what i wrote , well Im not going to get many answers If i ask for negreanu advice on every post and I dont really get my agressive post either to tell the true.

AngryCola

03-03-2005, 02:23 PM

Hey, that's fair enough.

I just thought you were basically dismissing everything everyone else had said because they weren't big names.

No worries.

Victor

03-03-2005, 03:58 PM

i didnt think it was possible for the thread to get any dumber.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you prefer to flop quads with a pocket pair or a set? I prefer the set.

[/ QUOTE ]

whoops, i guess i was wrong.

valenzuela

03-03-2005, 05:23 PM

It depends: TT: TTJ( woooooooooooooo!!!!!)
22: 229 (wooooooooooooooooo!!!!)
KK: KK4( good luck in getting any action)

threeonefour

03-03-2005, 06:54 PM

QQ is played against more hands than just AKs...

everyone knows 72o is worse than 32o... yet heads up against each other, give me 72o every time...

I would just like to say I prefer QQ and KK to AKs... of course... but running a simulation of the two hands heads up doesn't give a clear indication of which hand is better in a full handed game (particularly in small stakes games where 5-6 players regularly take the flop). [ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but here are the numbers anyway.

41,095,296 games 0.110 secs 373,593,600 games/sec

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 53.9515 % [ 00.54 00.00 ] { QQ }
Hand 2: 46.0485 % [ 00.46 00.00 ] { AKs }

[/ QUOTE ]

valenzuela

03-03-2005, 07:19 PM

QQ is my trouble hand, I basically screw up on the flop every time. Against better opostion than me and an unraised pot I would take AKs, any of these two variables change and I prefer QQ.

Trainwreck

03-03-2005, 08:07 PM

If it's a typical table and a bunch of folks call the raise, QQ is probably even further ahead with all the magoos who play any ACE probably at least one in this pot, in addition to the AKs, of course all the cards might be out.

How about this one:

Axs vs KK and another KK...

72o vs 32o, I would also take the 72o.

>TW<

Arnfinn Madsen

03-03-2005, 08:38 PM

What do people prefer?
A: Winning money
B: Losing money

zaxx19

03-03-2005, 09:26 PM

Now try AKo( Ok I know its sooted for the purposes of this discussion but hey its only sooted 25% of the time) versus J10s....

Now you have an idea of why AK suited or otherwise isnt even close to KK in terms of power.