KK hand: good or bad?

[bort411]

Like most others, I am now working on my deep stack play. My thinking on this hand was that on the flop I was way ahead or way behind, so I tried to control the size of the pot. All comments appreciated.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($127.7)
BB ($304.25)
UTG ($100)
Hero ($92.5)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.5. UTG posts a blind of $1.
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $4, UTG folds.

Flop: ($11.50) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($11.50) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $7</font>, Hero calls $7.

River: ($25.50) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $25</font>, Hero calls $25.

Final Pot: $75.50

[nebben]

I think on the flop you needed to bet out for more information, because you created the situation that you ended up facing. That is, a face card push. Now you have to decid whether the villain has a five, AJ or some A9, K9, or a 5, and you have no infomration from the flop. A flop bet would have put you in a lot better situation. 1/2 pot? If the villain raises, you can start to think about mucking based on your reads. However, if the villain calls, i would lean towards putting him on a hand like AJ, AQ, AK. Again, you need information.

Anyone like this idea?

[Tevyee]

I think checking on the flop is okay. You don't want to bet and then be check-raised out of more money. I would of, however, raised him after his bet on the turn to see where I was in the hand. The way he played that hand looked like A-x (probably a 9) or two face cards.

[EverettKings]

PF raise-- fine

Flop check--- fine on occassion, but there are two issues: 1)if they're used to seeing you bet after a preflop raise, it arouses suspicion (for me at least). 2) MOST IMPORTANT, they will call with a lot of hands on an innocent flop (overcard hands like AK or medium pairs like 77/TT), and a turn could not only hit their Ace or set, but it could also put a scary enough card out that they won't be calling bets. So I keep betting here, $6 is about right.

In any case I would raise the turn for the same reasons as betting the flop. They like their hand enough to bet it, so a raise to $15-$20 they'll probably call. Also a potential flush draw has arisen that you want to charge, though this is less important. I make it $20 to go ish.

Given that you got to the river how you did, I would min-raise for value. I really would have no reason to believe that I'm beat, and I doubt he folds a medium hand here for $25 more. AJ, QQ, J9, and lots of hands will pay you off. If he called a preflop raise with a 5 or 33 good for him, and if he set his 9s or Js... well congrats. But usually I get paid here.

That's just my opinion. Hope it helps.

-Kings

[DeeStay]

I know you're defending these passive check-calling moves with the rationale of "I'm trying to control the size of the pot." The problem is you aren't controlling the size of the pot, your opponent is. Every time money goes into the center, he is the one putting it there. You're just sitting back, letting him force the action. I don't think this is a stuation where deep stack play comes in. This passive style of play isn't how you want to play, is it?

If you had any read on this player, it would be of great help. If your opponent had hit a huge flop, is he going to bet out like that. Is he willing to fire three shots at you with a hand that you can beat? Hope these questions start a discussion of some sort.

DeeStay

[joewatch]

On the flop - betting is OK of course, but checking here is probably more profitable in the long run.

On the turn, now that you've induced what may be a bluff, you have to re-raise over the top ($20-$25) in case your opponent is semibluffing a flush draw. If he calls, I'd be a little more worried about 99, or A5, but you have position to check down the river if you are worried. If he reraises you, then it's time to dump it. Remember that you were the button so BB could have a variety of hands if he was suspecting a steal raise.

[dachord]

I'm in agreement with nebben. Paraphrasing Hell-Mouth in his book, I think you should've come in to "see where you're at..." If he reraises and is a solid player...?

[radioheadfan]

I think it was played to perfection. And I surmise that villian DID NOT have 5.

[TrailofTears]

I agree. Next time ask him if he is a "solid player" and act accordingly. (read with sarcasm)

[TrailofTears]

You're miles ahead on that flop 98% of the time. Now when the ace falls on the turn, you will be punching yourself in the junk for not betting that flop. I'm all for pot management, but at small stakes and with KK I am not checking through this flop.

[bort411]

[ QUOTE ]
I think on the flop you needed to bet out for more information, because you created the situation that you ended up facing. That is, a face card push. Now you have to decid whether the villain has a five, AJ or some A9, K9, or a 5, and you have no infomration from the flop. A flop bet would have put you in a lot better situation. 1/2 pot? If the villain raises, you can start to think about mucking based on your reads. However, if the villain calls, i would lean towards putting him on a hand like AJ, AQ, AK. Again, you need information.

Anyone like this idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think betting half the pot is a little weak here. With half the stack sizes, or double the blinds, I'm usually betting 8-10. Here I would be totally lost facing a raise. I don't have any read on this player, so I'm not prepared to push this flop.

[ QUOTE ]

Given that you got to the river how you did, I would min-raise for value. I really would have no reason to believe that I'm beat, and I doubt he folds a medium hand here for $25 more. AJ, QQ, J9, and lots of hands will pay you off. If he called a preflop raise with a 5 or 33 good for him, and if he set his 9s or Js... well congrats. But usually I get paid here.

That's just my opinion. Hope it helps.

-Kings

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that a minraise probably would have worked better.

[ QUOTE ]
I know you're defending these passive check-calling moves with the rationale of "I'm trying to control the size of the pot." The problem is you aren't controlling the size of the pot, your opponent is. Every time money goes into the center, he is the one putting it there. You're just sitting back, letting him force the action. I don't think this is a stuation where deep stack play comes in. This passive style of play isn't how you want to play, is it?

DeeStay

[/ QUOTE ]

To be frank, I'm interested in playing the style that makes me the most money. It seems that a majority of posts on this forum are misplayed or overplayed high pairs, and I consider that a problem in my own game. The deep stacks are relevant here, since with Party's former structure, with that flop, I would have no problem getting all my money in with this hand. Yesterday, I would have fired out $10 into this pot on the flop and pushed to a check raise. If he just called, I would have potted it on the turn. However, with me at least, being prepared to commit 87BB into a 11.5BB pot with merely an overpair is overkill. This thinking is something I'm trying to get away from.

I would be interested in hearing others' thoughts about this turn play. The more I think about it, the more I like checking this flop, as I'm either drawing basically dead or villian has a max of 5 outs. On the turn I'm still a little unsure about raising. I think doing so would discourage villian from possibly taking a bigger stab at the pot with a bluff on the river. Also, I'm inclined to muck if I see any more agression from villian after a turn raise.

[PoBoy321]

In all honesty, I think that this is weak/tigh play at it's finest. I don't know how you can put villain on a 5, so I think that the only hand you're behind here is 99. Now if he check/raises, or even check/calls this flop, I could see a reason for you to slow down, since this is a nearly drawless board, but I really don't see any reason not to bet and be the aggressor here. I think that this is an instance where a player will call with more hands than they'll bet and you'll turn more profit by being the aggressor.

[istewart]

I don't think it's that bad at all. The only hand you're ahead of here that's drawing to more than three outs is A9.

[TrailofTears]

I agree, and this is my playing style as well. I can see calls from any PP on this flop at this level, and I want to put money in the pot on my terms and with the knowledge that I can make correct decisions if played back at.

-T

[TrailofTears]

And at what point in this hand should hero start to put money in of his own will? If villain checks the turn, does hero once again check his kings through in order to "keep the pot small"? At some point I want to make money off of my hand.

-T